Listing standard gold piece values in the first edition Dungeon Masters Guide was one of Gygax's worst decisions, in my opinion. From there it's only a short leap to shops that stock magic items nas standard wares, which quickly pushes any pseudo-medieval gameworld towards an implicit technomagical industrial revolution. And finding a magic item yourself (especially if you were nearly killed by gods know what getting it) will always beat the pants off of picking up your new vorpal blade at Sears Roebuck.
There's a third option besides buying and looting that I wish there was a little mechanical support for: the magical gift. Think about the Lady in the Lake and Excalibur or the Phial of Galadriel. Wouldn't it be cool if there was some sort of good, solid criterion for "You are worthy of your quest. Take this, as it may be useful on your journey."? 4e's Treasure Parcel rules (which I otherwise loath) might actually be on to something in this regard.
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thing i didn't like about magic shops is if you have them why doesn't the part just go and steal everything from it. it would be easier then going threw a very dangerous dungeon.
ReplyDeleteNethack has some cool magic item delivery methods that could be easily ported to a pen & paper game. Coolest is the fact that all classes can sacrifice the corpses of dead monsters on an altar to possibly get an artifact gift from the gods to "use wisely." Also lawful characters wielding a plain longsword have a chance to get Excalibur when dipping the sword into a fountain. Then there's naming an elven dagger to get Sting, making a crysknife out of a worm tooth, etc. etc.
ReplyDeleteSeems like a good way to make use of good/lawful monsters in an adventure, rather than as just limelight stealers or foes for chaotic characters to fight.
ReplyDeletePerhaps an alternate treasure table where such creatures might have a boon for players who manage to not screw things up by attacking.
There's a minor deity in my 3E campaign that exists solely to dish out long-lost artifacts to worthy travelers/adventuring types.
ReplyDeleteShe monitors them for a while, sees if they make good use of the stuff they've got, judges whether their quest might have some impact on history, and if the boxes are ticked off appropriately, she delivers them into a puzzle-gauntlet which, if they pass through, brings them face to face with her to receive a reward.
The reward is either an item that would specifically be useful to them in achieving their goal, or a piece of knowledge (they can choose past, present, or future).
Obligatory response to the magical gift idea.
ReplyDeleteEverything I've read indicates the gold piece sale value was there to give you XP for turning in your magic item, not as a price list for item shops. Given how crappy XP for killing monsters was, and how much it cost to level up, this was kind of vital. If you look at what it takes to make magic items (in the DMG), it's kind of obvious there cannot be any mass production of them -- indeed, it's really hard to imagine why there's so many in dungeons, etc, given how hard they are to make!
ReplyDeleteOne simple method is to have magic items be given as payment by an NPC for performing a quest, instead of "Do this quest and keep the loot you find." Just figure out what magic items you'd have as loot in the dungeon, and then make them, or a part of them, rewards on completion. Focus on consumable items in the dungeon itself, things players might need to use if a fight goes against them (not to mention all the fun you can have as they try to figure out what a potion is...)
I do the "magical gift" thing pretty often, but without specific rules behind it. I just do it be "feel."
ReplyDeleteI don't have magic shops (at best, there might be an alchemist shop selling poisons and perhaps a few low-level potions).
I often tell my players that the weapons they find on their vanquished foes, while generating magic auras, have a "look of evil" on them. They might have tribal fetishes, carvings, and other evil-looking decorations. I explain that the mere site of them makes lesser men "uncomfortable." They usually never take these weapons, which is by design. They're not actually "evil" in terms of game mechanics. They're just used by evil bad guys, which makes my players loathe to have their characters pick them up in case of any unintended consequences.
To balance this, I'll have organizations like churches, patrons, or powerful good creatures like an occasional good dragon give the characters magic items so that they have what they need.
It works pretty well and definitely helps avoid Monty Haulism, but it's not codified.
Personally, I have magic shops. But, I tend to prefer a magic level more like "You've got a magic knife. So what?".
ReplyDeleteAlso, why not just do it without any mechanics? If they're going on this and detect alignment, along with a quick postcognition spell, shows them as being qualified, then they get it. If not, they don't.
ReplyDeleteI'm trying something out in my campaign. At certain reputation thresholds I'm giving characters a few bonus xp, minor gold, and gifts, some of which may be magical. The idea has been to keep it restrained, but impart the sense that the players are making an impact on the realm. These gifts come in the form of patron lords, rich, lovelorn maidens, and the favor of supernatural beings.
ReplyDeleteI haven't received enough data to assess the full impact, but so far the return on granting a player a hit point out of the blue as a sign his or her god is well pleased with brave or wise deeds, or a +1 ceremonial dagger from the elves as a token of friendship, frx, has been impressive in terms of player gratification/immersion.
If the party has to deal with a monster that cant be defeated by normal (non-magical) means, I hide a (usually one-off) magical mcguffin that could kill it. Its like a demon-god-haunted temple, with a crystal dagger, that could open a wound in the demon, which would allow normal attacks to get through (at a penalty), but the blade brakes when it hits. That is good, as I keep magic items rare in my games.
ReplyDeleteThat method is not unusual, as I have been playing too much video games. I like to throw-in some things (like loose rocks, ambush spots, chandeliers) that can turn the tide of battle - towards ether side - if the players can spot and make use of them!
Why would you need a mechanic for an NPC giving a worthy PC a gift? Wouldn't they just...y'know...give'em a gift. That smacks too much of the old school 'you need rules for sneezing' mentality that I think hurt D&D post Basic and even Advanced.
ReplyDeleteThere are indeed magic shops in my main campaign milieu but the way they work is PC and NPC adventurers go get the items carried in the stores.
So when you return with the ears of a giant bat and a +2 Sword of Bat Slaying the shopkeep will say something like, "Nice. Trade it in for a +1 Sword that also gives you the protection of a Flameshield Spell when wielding it? Come on, it's a really good deal."
The problem I've always had with completely taking the purchase of magic items out of the game is that I worry the players won't have interesting things to spend their filthy lucre on. If they don't need the money, they won't do as many ridiculously dangerous things to get it, and then where are we? This is a question and a problem that spans every edition of the game I've ever played (2e and thereafter); from what you're saying here, I think I can safely suppose that it didn't start in 2e.
ReplyDeleteTo this end, I've done some noodling over other ways to pull money out of the game, discussed here. Creating a genuine simulation of an economy is far beyond both my expertise and give-a-damn, but there is a certain minimum level necessary just to keep things interesting and remotely believable.
as a DM my motto is " no gift is ever free". Either the item itself has strings attached (excalibur), or it's given for a task, or the giver is really offering the pcs a chance to impress then with a return gift. What about gifts that are only leant? Sure you can have the spear of demon-slaying, as long as you dedicate yourself to slaying demons. You wanna do something else? just give it back so someone else can have a go.
ReplyDeleteNot super impressed with your reasoning here. The dmg was written in the shadow of the LLB+supplements and those stated that gold and magic were exchangeable o a 1:1 ratio plus time.
ReplyDeleteYou could find a long sword +1 and get 1000xp for it, or you could find 1000gp and the party's magic user could spend 4 weeks and make a long sword +1.
The gp value was for lazy pcs who didn't have the time (or a Mu) to create a magic item, so for the convenience of not spending 2 months on a suit of magic plate armor, or a wand of magic missiles, you could pay roughly 3x the creation cost.
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ReplyDelete"think people want to bother jumping through hoops to comment on their blog."
ReplyDeleteNo, man. Just went through a rash of spam on older posts a while back.
Not sure what that whole bit was about, but anyone who has a blog and doesn't have some kind of capcha/anti-spam is asking for 1000 comments that are all random "This am greater article evers! Also you want cheap drugs click here!!!!" spam, or worse. This blog requires only typing one word to post -- hardly an odious burden.
ReplyDeleteApologies. Intemperate and paranoid remarks deleted.
ReplyDeletething i didn't like about magic shops is if you have them why doesn't the part just go and steal everything from it.
ReplyDeleteThat brings up an intriguing possibility. In a world where magic items are special and rare, a merchant buying a magic item from a party would be like buying the Mona Lisa off someone: they'd better be prepared to secure it against everyone who's going to want to take a crack at it.
So most merchants don't deal in magic items, because it's too much of a hassle. But maybe they know a guy who knows a guy who does business in that area. And maybe that guy is a front man for somebody sinister who's going to put all of those magic items to use soon.
"The problem I've always had with completely taking the purchase of magic items out of the game is that I worry the players won't have interesting things to spend their filthy lucre on."
ReplyDeleteOne major thing in the original editions (even the little brown books) was that players would build keeps or fortresses once they reached a certain level. Given that even a fairly modest fortress is going to cost upwards of 100,000gp, easily at least 3 or 4 times as expensive as the most expensive magic item listed, PCs are going to need to spend a lot of loot on that.