I have heard it bandied on the internets about that old schoolers are considered to be against skill systems. Personally, I am not against skill systems. I don't care for skill systems in D&D, but in other RPGs I have no objection to them. My bigger problem with skill systems is that so many of them are cumbersome and/or just plain boring. For my tastes Traveller and RuneQuest said 90% of what needs to be said about skill systems. Which is good, I guess, since so many games rip off RQ.
That's vaguely acceptable if you're Chaosium, but what is everybody else's excuse? A list of skills and a die mechanic does not a good skill system make. I'll grant Savage Worlds some points for brevity and Clash Bowley's In Harm's Way for allowing different skills to solve the same task, but most similar systems don't do much for me. Lords of Creation has a neat mechanic where each new skill level gives you better chances of success and broader uses for your skill. I like that a lot.
And then there's the make-your-own skills games, like Unknown Armies, Ghostbusters and Risus. I like the concept, but I would have trouble keeping it straight for a serious game. I've never played UA but if I did my charsheet would probably say stupid things like "Han shot first" and "I'm Harley Race and you're the new babyface who thinks he's hot stuff".
What other skill systems do people like?
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If I ever again touch a Palladium game, I'll consider dropping the skills.
ReplyDeleteI'm very fond of basic D6, as presented in the first edition of the WEG Star Wars game (skill = basic stat unless skill points spent to improve).
Greg C's rules for SW are drawn from his work on the Ghostbusters game but basic D6 seems to work for "serious" stories.
I don't know if the system substantially changed over time. First edition SW is all I ever used.
I consider Fate skill system a nice one. Of course, you may enter in the metagame dispute once a while (tagging all the Aspects back and forth until all fate points are spent), but it's a nice system anyway.
ReplyDeleteI really like having broad skill groups, especially for cinematic games. That way a character could have a skill like "Science" that would cover all physics, geology, astronomy, etc. Great for absent minded professor types or mad scientists. Free games like Action System & Tri-Stat dX have optional rules for them.
ReplyDeleteThe idea probably dates back to The Fantasy Trip, where characters had various Talents. So instead of having a list of skills like Pick Pocket, Sneak, etc., you'd have the Talent "Thief".
Empire of the Petal Throne (TSR, 1975) has a skill system.
ReplyDeleteIf Empire of the Petal Throne isn't old school, then I don't want to be old school.
I quite like the (pre-3e) WFRP system, where you roll against your stats, but your skills give you a bonus to the roll, if appropriate in that instance.
ReplyDeleteGenerally though, I agree that the Chaosium ruleset does everything I want from a skill system.
I really like the die roll / attribute / skill system in Dream Pod 9's Silhouette systems (specifically in Jovian Chronicles and Heavy Gear 2nd edition).
ReplyDeleteAttributes modify your die roll, and your skill level determines the # of dice to roll. It is a bit "grainy" in resolution as it uses a d6, but for old schoolers it should feel right at home.
I'm sure there is a COC NPC somewhere in an adventure with the skill "Han shot first"
ReplyDeleteHan Shot First would be good for arguing, nerdiness, and sneakily drawing a weapon without someone noticing, I guess.
ReplyDeleteOne of the NPCs in one of the adventures has the skill "smarter than you", but to be fair, she is Rebecca Borgstrom.
...which I did not in any mean as a comment about [i]you[/i], of course.
ReplyDeleteI'm going go out on a limb here and point out a bit of a paradox with the 'Han Shot First' skill. The problem is what the player thinks it does may be different from what the GM thinks it does. This is a problem often encountered in any game with a "make your own skill" skill system.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I love these kinds of systems. As a GM, I look forward to the player who can convince me that their somewhat esoteric interpretation applies is a particular instance.
The original Mekton RPG (before 'Z', before 'II') had percentage based skills you could choose or make up. My good buddy Nelson had "Steal Another Pilot's Mech". This skill enabled him to climb a 40 ft. mecha as it walked across the battlefield, override the cockpit door lock and input his own start-up code into the computer after tossing the current pilot out (using a Hand-to-Hand combat skill for that last part).
Priceless.
Other then that I like the idea of Stat+Skill+Roll where you mix and match the first two elements as needed. I know Savage Worlds and a few others get the credit for this innovation but I've been seeing this in games and doing it since the late 80s. I think it may have been Mekton or Star Trek that prompted it.
When fixing a powerplant it could be Int+Repair but if you fail and its gonna blow up you use Dex/Agil/Speed+Dodge to get away. Then one of my players who has a higher Int then Speed will say, "Wait. Can I apply my Int+Dodge to the roll as I'm a mechanic and probably realized I couldn't fix it and it might blow". Yes indeedy do I say!
I have players generate their own skills (based on real life or justifiable skills). The point of those skills is by and large to allow creative problem solving.
ReplyDeleteSkills give a +2 bonus to any roll you can justify that skill applying. If you have woodlore you could easily justify +2 to a hiding check, or a tracking check. If you have bear lore as well, there is another +2 to the tracking check.
The other uses deal with investigations (you pick a skill, and gain a clue relating to that skill if even remotely applicable) or to allow really specific tasks. Ie, you can't forge a sword unless you have some kind of applicable skill (like weaponsmith or at least blacksmithing) and then just make ability checks related to what you want to do.
I go into more detail in the waay back machine here:
http://zzarchov.blogspot.com/2009/07/i-make-bear-lore-impressive-skill.html
We talking any system, or just fantasy?
ReplyDeleteI seem to recall Harn having a skill system, but I can't say I recommend it, since I havn't looked at Harn in 10-15 years.
I am one of those old-schoolers who doesn't like fantasy skill systems, but has a fondness for Traveller's skill system.
I really like 4th ed's system quite a lot. it's simple, and unobtrusive, but still manages to be meaningful in game. I've been using a slightly modified version for a Mutant Future modern super hero setting for a few weeks now and it blends quite well.
ReplyDeleteI actually like Rolemaster's skill system. It is extremely complex and takes a lot of work to understand, but once you get the hang of it, I think it does a great job of representing a very "organic" breakdown of skills from general fields of knowledge to very specific skill focuses (with the understanding that if you're playing Rolemaster in the first place, you're okay with a lot of complex rules and are willing to put some effort into understanding the system).
ReplyDeleteStar Wars d6 skill system is nice, "light", and very intuitive, as is Traveller's 2d+Skill Rating (it's the core of what my own homebrew uses). The career-based "skill" system of Barbarians of Lemuria is also very nice; it's a little bit of "make your own skill" combined with a cinematic blending of what you are is what you're good at-ness.
And honestly, I don't really get the dislike towards skill systems. A lot of them are overwrought, but I think it's unfair that most people paint all skill systems as "limiting creativity". Any time a character has a related value that provides a statistical chance for success or failure in an action, to me that's a form of skill system. It might not be clearly defined as such, but that's the role it plays in the overall RPG. What's a D&D "to-hit" number/THAC0 other than a character's combat skill rating?
I couldn't disagree more. I dislike any system that isn't skill based, Shadowrun Fourth Edition being my favorite. But I like the tweak-ability of it, and I like dice pools.
ReplyDeleteWhich isn't to say I mind the smaller, more streamlined rulesets, like Savage Worlds or D&D 4e. They serve the purpose of keeping the number of things to remember or reference down, and in the case of Savage Worlds, it dramatically speeds up gameplay--which is why we design using SW at Apathy Games.
But playing older games, like AD&D, dives me crazy, due to the lack of a unified mechanic for doing everything. Even 3e has a separate skill system from it's combat bonus, which again is different from saving throws. The whole could have been unified.
What's wrong with having "Han shot first" as a skill in UA?
ReplyDeleteBRP is my first and biggest love.
Castles and Crusades SIEGE non-skill system covers the type of fantasy game I'm into playing these days.
ReplyDeleteHOL's skill system has never been bettered IMO. More games need a Withstand/Enjoy Torture/Bagpipes skill.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I also liked the In Nomine d666 system (2d6 roll vs TN, with a 3rd degree of success die).
Oh, and L5R's roll-and-keep system (an exception to my general hatred of die pool mechanics.). There was just so much game level tinkering you could do with that system:
* contested TN auctions,
* Raises for extra effect,
* Deliberately trying to fail by picking the low dice (and the embarrassment of still accidentally beating someone of higher status...).
Obviously I like the TSR Conan/ZeFRS skill system, but I'm also partial to the Over the Edge general descriptor method.
ReplyDeleteRight now I'm in need of a new skill system for DnD. I'm about to DM an adventure and I thought about playing it in an old-school style without skills... But the more I contemplate this, the more I think about using some alternative mechanics... Zzarchov's idea is very appealing, is there anyone else with any advice? I'm looking for a solution with as little skill listing as possible, sth. simple and intuitive.
ReplyDeleteI ended up using T&T style saving rolls on ability scores for D&D games whenever issues of succeed/fail came up. Never pushed the levels of the saving rolls higher than 2nd or 3rd though.
ReplyDeleteHave much love for Rolemaster skills too.
I've blogged at length about why I hate skill systems in RPGs. However, since you asked, I find them acceptable when:
ReplyDelete- they are integral to the character and/or system
AND
- they do not slow or drag character creation
Unless, both are true, I generally cannot stand skill systems in RPGs.
Acceptable forms:
Traveller
Maelstrom
In games where character death is fairly off the table (or players are expected to play for long campaigns), I can tolerate them.
Semi-Acceptable forms:
Ars Magica (4th Edition preferred)
James Bond 007
JB:
ReplyDeleteInteresting that you list one of your criteria as skill systems not slowing or dragging character creation, but then name Traveller, a game where determining the skills of your character takes probably 80% of character creation and can actually kill your character in the process, as one of your "acceptable" games with skill systems.
You also note that the skill system "must be integral to the character and/or system". How do you feel systems like GURPS, Rolemaster, Call of Cthluhu/BRP, Savage Worlds, or Vampire: the Masquerade stack up to this criteria? I've seen "skill-less" D&D-like houseruled implementations of GURPS, but for the other four RPGs, skills and the system/character I feel are very tightly woven together, and certainly not "tacked on", like one may consider, say, AD&D's NWPs.
Generally, I like skill-based systems a lot, but I get more lukewarm toward class-based systems with tacked-on skill lists. Pick a lane and drive in it, I say.
ReplyDeleteAs for games knocking of BRP/RQ, it's because RuneQuest got it right the first time. I really do think it's as simple as that: if it ain't broke, (A) don't fix it and (B) knock it off at every opportunity so it lives on :)
agreed as well...BRP is where it's at.
ReplyDeletealternately, just give me an Attribute-based Save system...STR-based saves, DEX-based saves, etc.
-k
I may get flamed for this but I quite like the skill systen in Feng Shui.
ReplyDeleteThe skills are not just ways to do things. They are almost a life path. If you have say sorcery skill then that means you spent time around sorcerers and may still have some contacts in the occult world. You may have gear that relates to sorcery. You will have knowledge of things/people/places occult. Usefull.
In defence of the "Han shot first"/name your own skill skill systems they can work so long as the GM rides herd on the tone. I first ran across this kind of system in Tri-Tac's Fringeworthy and Stalking the Night Fantastic. The games had pages long skill lists but they were just suggestions. The name of a player defined skill can lend tone and shading. Take 3 people sitting at a table playing poker. The first has the skill "Gambler". The second has the skill "Card Sharp" and the third has the skill "Whist". Just from the skill names you already know something about these people. So the names are usefull.
When I run games that use a player defined skill system I make sure the players know the tone of the game and that narrow = power. The more focused the skill in the more it can do in it's area of focus.
In the poker example. The whist player will not be getting a great deal of benefit from that skill. The Card Sharp could get a large benefit but it might take cheating to get the full punch. The Gambler will get full use of their skill and may well win so long as they do not start playing whist and so long as nobody cheats.
Anyway, my take.
I've never played UA but if I did my charsheet would probably say stupid things like "Han shot first" and "I'm Harley Race and you're the new babyface who thinks he's hot stuff".
ReplyDeleteThe way I see UA those skill come under the label of "You're doing it right".
In fact, I'd love to see the cherries you come up with on "Han shot first".
I played RuneQuest in high school. It's a great game, but I never was very fond of its magic systems.
ReplyDeleteOver the years I've developed and used many skill-based systems. The current one is designed for only one PC, so I can play with my wife.
http://davidvs.net/rpg/
My programming compels me to be self-serving, so I have to mention the Chimera Action Roll system (and this may be of interest to Squidman).
ReplyDeleteBasically, all actions are tied to a character attribute, which determines the d20 target number required for success. Skills correspond to attributes, so when you use a skill, you must roll the target number associated with the skill's attribute.
Not exactly carving the wheel, but it's fast and intuitive. Skill improvements apply bonuses to the roll; difficulty shifts the target number. It's all kinds of fun.
Check here: http://www.welshpiper.com/skills-and-finesse/ for a write-up (there are links to the Action Roll system as well).
Hope it's of interest.
I'm a longtime RQ player, and I'm a big Risus proponent, but I really go for the sheer wackiness of Encounter Critical.
ReplyDelete