Thursday, September 13, 2007

Now that's fan hatred

When I'm on gaming message boards I always make it a point to read threads with titles like "What's the Stupidest Game You've Ever Read?" I've found a lot of really great stuff tracking down things other people hate. Not because I'm some sort of contrarian, but simply because I seem to take roleplaying a lot less seriously than some folks. One man's stupid is another man's awesome, it seems. That's how I first found out about Under the Storm Giant's Castle.

So I was over at The Acaeum the day before yesterday when I found one of those kinds of threads. I found one great lead on an old third party D&D/Gamma Word/Traveller mash-up of some sort. But what I wanted to talk about today was a fellow named Rick's report on two terrible RuneQuest items. One of them, a city book called Eldarad, had already come up earlier in the thread as an example not of something stupid but rather as just an incredibly pisspoor product. Here's what Rick had to say:

In Germany, we actually burn a copy of Eldarad or Daughters of Darkness at a convention each year, alternating products each year. We've had upwards of 100 people attend the ceremony. We auction off a lighter with an original copy of the module thrown in for free. The book is usually still in the shrink and sold as a fund raiser. The purchaser gets the "honour" of leading the masses to the awaiting torch. We've been doing it since 1996.
Holy crap! Forget all those internet wimps moaning and groaning about 4e or the latest Forgie outrage or whatever. They can't hold a candle to the level of hatred that leads people to actual book burning. I seem to remember a couple other instances of reputed rpg book burning. Was it Donnie Mac talking about the GenCon reception of the Traveller hardcore to TNE. Donnie Mac is the nickname I just made up for Don McKinney. Maybe the D-Mac (another new nickname) will swing by here and tell his tale.

Then there's the Diana Jones Award. I have a lot of respect for the Diana Jones Award for Excellence in Gaming, because it in no way pretends to be "fair" or "democratic" or "reflective of the hobby" or any of that other stuff. I know I'm one of the people who, in the past, routinely criticized the Origins for exactly those reasons, but the Diana Jones folks never made any pretense about their agenda. Their award goes to what they think is excellent, and that's pretty much the whole criteria as far as I can tell. It's elitist. It's a bit pompous. But since you know you're getting pompous elitism, I'm totally onboard for it.But what does it mean?

There is not nor has there ever been a person named Diana Jones associated with this award. The name comes from TSR's old Indiana Jones RPG. According to the founding legend of the Award, back when TSR UK lost the license the stock they had on hand had to be destroyed. Encased in the lucite pyramid are the remains of the last copy they had on hand. Why someone chose to build a memorial to that event remains a mystery to me. Either way, apparently the "In" got burnt off, leaving the words "diana Jones" on one of the remaining pieces of the game. There's also a couple of the infamous Nazi™ stand-up figures. I hate those guys. Trademarked Nazis are the worst.

I've wondered for a long time what is supposed to be signified by using the charred remains of one of TSR's less successful licensed games as an award. Is it a big 'F U!' to TSR? A middle finger raised to corporate non-indie gaming? The Diana Jones people say this:

The Diana Jones committee believes that a trophy that embodies the destruction of the last copy of one of the games industry’s most unloved and least-mourned roducts is a suitable symbol for the aims of the Diana Jones Award.

As a kid I didn't much care for the Indiana Jones RPG. The biggest letdown was that it came with no chargen rules. As written, you were expected to play Indy or Jock or Short Round or one of the other canonical film heroes. My game group rejected the game based upon the simple fact that all of our other TSR games up until that point had driven home the lesson that in roleplaying your were supposed to make up your own PC and only lamers played someone else's character. But I can't help but wonder how grown-up Jeffy would react to rereading a copy and maybe playing a session or two. It might rock on toast for all I know. Any game that promises Nazi™-punching can't be all bad.

Just thinking out loud here, but I also can't help but think that if a Forge darling author came out with a game where everyone was required to play a certain set of characters that it would quite probably be hailed as 'innovative' or at least 'intriguing'. Something like Evil Bob's My Love For You is Way Out Of Line but taken seriously.

And let's get a little perspective here: to consider any TSR game the 'most unloved and least-mourned' is just crazy talk. Comparatively speaking, the print runs were so high on most of TSR's games that there's bound to be at least a few fans of even their crappiest products. To think that something like Indiana Jones is going to be held in lower esteem than truly wretched rpgs like Racial Holy War or FATAL strikes me as just bitter anti-TSR nonsense. There's plenty of things to not like about TSR. To me, the fact that Indiana Jones was subpar doesn't seem to rank that high on a list of them.

15 comments:

  1. Anonymous9:32 AM

    But, only lamers do play someone else's character.

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  2. Anonymous9:55 AM

    I was in awe of the Indiana Jones RPG, thinking the idea was tremendous, until I actually read a review.

    It was only years later that I managed to get my hands on a copy and realised the true majesty of how crap this game is.

    Forced, rail-roaded stories that follow the films to the nth degree. Scripts to be read out, and dice to be rolled.

    There is no luck or fate, just outcomes.

    Id be ashamed to run this for my kids...

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  3. I found one great lead on an old third party D&D/Gamma Word/Traveller mash-up of some sort.

    {perk!}

    ... And for the record, I kind of like the TSR Indiana Jones game (which I've both run and played), and you've got the right idea: it's best appreciated by setting aside traditional RPG expectations and judging it on its own merits (such as they are).

    Of course, this leads to a many-layered set of ironies in the context of Diana Jones, ironies that I strongly suspect some portions of the Diana Jones crowd could stare directly at, for days, and never notice.

    Although I do think West End Games did a far better job overall, thanks mostly to the contributions of folks like Peter Schweighofer (who is still cranking out pulp-era awesomeness these days via his PDF outlet). I also think TSR implemented some of the IJ concepts far better in the groovy Bullwinkle & Rocky game.

    And let's get a little perspective here: to consider any TSR game the 'most unloved and least-mourned' is just [...] bitter anti-TSR nonsense.

    Yeah.

    There's plenty of things to not like about TSR.

    Like the fact that, in the 80s, they founded virtually all of the destructive RPG trends of the 90s (including most everything White Wolf gets blamed for). But that's one of those topics that demands a full hour's convention panel with a long followup in the lobby; it isn't safe for the Internet :)

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  4. Anonymous10:32 AM

    to consider any TSR game the 'most unloved and least-mourned' is just crazy talk. Comparatively speaking, the print runs were so high on most of TSR's games that there's bound to be at least a few fans of even their crappiest products. To think that something like Indiana Jones is going to be held in lower esteem than truly wretched rpgs like Racial Holy War or FATAL strikes me as just bitter anti-TSR nonsense.

    I'll disagree with this statement a bit - there's actually a better chance that Indiana Jones IS "more unloved" than other games precisely because it's print run was so high. There could probably be a larger quantity of people who hate and revile the TSR Indiana Jones RPG than who have actually even heard of FATAL - so by sheer volume of hate it would be more hated at the very least. Whether that counts the same as "more unloved" I'm not quite certain.

    I found one great lead on an old third party D&D/Gamma Word/Traveller mash-up of some sort.

    More please! Is there a title for said mash-up? Or perhaps a publisher? Or are you going to hold out on letting that info slip until you own a copy for yourself and don't have to fight off the screaming hordes who want one too?

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  5. I'll disagree with this statement a bit - there's actually a better chance that Indiana Jones IS "more unloved" than other games precisely because it's print run was so high. There could probably be a larger quantity of people who hate and revile the TSR Indiana Jones RPG than who have actually even heard of FATAL - so by sheer volume of hate it would be more hated at the very least. Whether that counts the same as "more unloved" I'm not quite certain.

    If you parse "unloved" as apathy rather than hate, I think 95% of all gaming products ever released will beat Indiana Jones hands down. If you want to go with straight-out hatred I think you could find more examples just looking at TSR. 2nd edition AD&D would be in the running given the number of people who never switched. Personally, I can probably work up some ire for Zebulon's Guide to Frontier Space, as I loathe the trickery involved. That was a new edition of Star Frontiers masquerading as a supplement to the previous one. And if Rose Estes gaming fiction counts then all bets are off. At least at one time you could find whole webpages devoted to hating her Greyhawk novels.

    Or are you going to hold out on letting that info slip until you own a copy for yourself and don't have to fight off the screaming hordes who want one too?

    That was my wicked plan. Give it a few days to see if I can secure the copy I've got in my crosshairs and then I'll let the cat out of the bag.

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  6. First off the idea of Germans banding together to burn a book. Quite frankly disturbs me a little bit.

    Secondly I dont know enough people who read let alone play TSR Indiana Jones to really gauge hate for it. I know the distain for 2nd ed. AD&D is far greater.

    3rd off. I agree in a limited fashion with what you said on Zeb's guide. While there is some trickery afoot as you have said. That non-sense can be disreguarded (sp?) and it can be used as a straight supplement. It has some good/fun info in it.

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  7. The Traveller TNE burning story is third hand, and is alleged to have occurred at a prominent national gaming convention in 1995.

    By 1995, Traveller:TNE had been out for 2 years, and had successfully turned the Traveller fan base into two groups: the first, approximately 50% old players and 50% new players, were genuinely enthusiastic about the new setting, and had settled into the virus-devastated setting. The other group, approximately 75% old players and 25% new players, were horrified by TNE and would angrily greet GDW employees at various events across the country.

    This would all dramatically change with the release of "Aliens of the Rim" in 1995. This book would detail the Hivers, the deus ex machina behind the TNE setting, but already well established in the Traveller setting thanks to great original work done by the legendary Keith brothers.

    The new release turned the "facts" about Hivers somewhat upside down, but turning the militaristic Ithklur into Santa Claus-cap wearing, bagpipe-playing space wusses was too much for the old players who were still loyal. And in the Designer's Overview on page 88 of that tome David Nilsen would basically belittle all the previous material published on Hivers (thus insulting the legendary Keiths in front of the fans).

    When fans hit Santa Claus, it was bad enough. But after the Overview slam, it is alleged that some people simply returned the product for refund, while others were much more vocal about it, disrupting the TNE seminars at said convention to make accusations. It is alleged that at the end of one of those protests, someone set fire to their copy of said book.

    I've not seen any verification of this, and the stories never nail down the convention. However, the record would seem to indicate that that product did, in fact, begin a dramatic shrinkage of TNE sales.

    Honestly, I think the burning is wishful thinking by fans, and didn't happen. However, having read the page of comments, I can understand the sentiment.

    As far as the nicknames go, anything with Mac in it makes me sound like Mr. MacMahon's illegitimate son from WWE.

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  8. As far as the nicknames go, anything with Mac in it makes me sound like Mr. MacMahon's illegitimate son from WWE.

    That was kinda the vibe I was shooting for. ;)

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  9. I still have my copy of the TSR Indiana Jones RPG sitting up on the shelf, next to Gamma World. It was given to me by my older sister's boyfriend many years ago. At the time, I read through it, was nonplussed, and shelved it. I haven't looked at it much since then.

    These days, I'd want to play Indiana Jones-style adventures in Fudge, I think.

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  10. Anonymous2:10 PM

    If you want to go with straight-out hatred I think you could find more examples just looking at TSR. 2nd edition AD&D would be in the running given the number of people who never switched.

    Heh - I was thinking the same thing actually right after I posted my comment - I'll bet there's at least one AD&D book that could easily beat any other RPG product for "most hated" just on quantity of haters alone.

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  11. At least at one time you could find whole webpages devoted to hating her Greyhawk novels.

    Wowsers. Shades of Billy Crystal and Christopher Guest :)

    Willie: You know, the other day, I took one o' them, uh--?

    Frankie: RPG tie-in novels set in the World of Greyhawk?

    Willie: Yeah! And I deliberately read it! Oh my god it sucked! All the way to the last chapter!

    Frankie: Oooh, I hate it when that happens.

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  12. Personally, I can probably work up some ire for Zebulon's Guide to Frontier Space, as I loathe the trickery involved. That was a new edition of Star Frontiers masquerading as a supplement to the previous one.

    I remember when this came out. We realized as soon as we read through it that it was a new edition, and we thought that was great.

    Such were the ways of TSR at that time -- new editions pretending to be supplements (e.g. Marvel Ultimate Powers book) and games released with slightly incoherent rules packages that didn't quite gel (Gamma World, I'm looking at you, sitting up there behind your Larry Elmore covers, with your immortal suicide squirrels).

    That said, all the weirdness around this time really pleased me, in a way that the relative coherence of second edition D&D didn't, and the later incoherence of revised Gamma World products also didn't.

    I can't say that I actually have ire for any RPG product. I know I have disdain for some, but the ones I disdain are never used, and thus can't earn ire.

    (Examples of disdained products include Clanbook: Toreador for Vampire, which took the clan of artists and aesthetes and gave them some kickass, combat-oriented special abilities for no reason in particular. Author Steven C. Brown went on to write various books in the Everlasting series, which looked like the World of Darkness for people who thought the WoD didn't have enough Rifts in it, so there you go.)

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  13. Ire for Zebulon's Guide? I loved Zebulon's Guide-- I thought it nicely solved a lot of the problems I had with the SF system. Sadly, I don't think I ever got to implement them in a game, since, by the time it came out the gaming group was beginning to dissolve (by doing crazy things like graduating and moving off to college), and it's been sitting, forlorn and unread in a box in my closet for the last, what? 17? years.

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  14. I've been trying to ponder which TSR product I dislike the most intensely.

    I suppose the product that most disappointed me was T1-4, mainly because I loved (and still love to this day) T1. I don't know that I ever hated the Temple, but I do recall being awfully bored by it, which is just as bad, really.

    Ravenloft II: The House on Gryphon Hill was a cheapass hasty cash-in on the success of I6 ... But it didn't bother me because they were so obvious about it. Anyone who purchased it expecting anything better than a cheap cash-in deserved to be taken for the suckers they were :)

    I think the product that made me feel kind of dirty to flip through it was "The Horde" boxed set for FR. It was my first exposure to really really blatant padding on the part of the production staff (I don't think it would be an exaggeration to call it - at most - a 64-page booklet fluffed out to pass as a boxed set). Not the writer's fault.

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  15. TSR Product most intensely despised:

    GREYHAWK WARS.

    As a Greyhawk supplement, it sucked. As a wargame, it sucked. As a D&D anything, it sucked.

    And the bastards made it canon. You might as well have set fire to the world. I've never been able to bring myself to run anything newer made for Greyhawk.

    It's as if they said: Hey, Gygax, you can't use your Gord the Rogue novels to make Greyhawk suck as bad as we can make it suck.

    After reading Greyhawk Wars, I actually enjoyed re-reading the Gord series.

    Yes, I've admitted it. I've read every book in that series twice.

    God, I am a fanboy. I am such a fanboy I once worked up a Greyhawk to Dangerous Journeys conversion.

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