In my mind, it's the Cook/Marsh Expert set where the judge finalizes the divorce between AD&D and 'Classic' D&D, so to speak. And the monster section is where this separation is most obvious. Absent are the Gygaxian Icons such as the beholder, mind flayers, etc. Here are the highest hitdice baddies in the '81 Expert rules.Roc (6-36 HD)
Whale (6-36 HD)
Dragon Turtle (30 HD)
T. Rex (20 HD)
Golems (2+2 to 20 HD)
Elementals (8 to 16 HD)
Purple Worm (15 HD)
Mastodon (15 HD)
Giant Crocodile (15 HD)
Giants (8-15 HD)
Cyclops (13 HD)
Frost Salamander (12 HD)
Titanothere (12 HD)
Hydra (5-12 HD)
Stegosaurus (11 HD)
Triceratops (11 HD)
Giant Sturgeon (10+2 HD)
Efreet (10 HD)
Black Pudding (10 HD)
Who knew Giant Sturgeon were so nasty? I love how many of the critters listed here are basically wild animals on steroids or dinosaurs.
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I've been noticing lately, be it giant sturgeon or tyrannosaurs, the fauna of the typical fantasy world make it nigh impossible for a normal person to even consider walking over to the next village.
ReplyDelete"What happened to Bob?"
"Giant anteater crushed him."
"Damn. I told him not to go for that day hike."
What's more, it's unclear how normal villages, with at best a token first-level farmboy-turned hero to defend them, deal with an intrusion by even the lowly catoblepas. Surely, a world where the various D&D monsters roam around should pretty much have a few giant, walled fortress-cities defended by epic mages and warriors, from which farming teams sally forth each morning escorted by magically armed guards, ready to use their teleport wands to spirit the fieldworkers back into the city at the first sign of a marauding band of rabid hadrosaurs.
Or something like that.
In the classic Wilderlands of High Fantasy, the simple solution was that essentially everyone, man or woman, had a character class and at least a level or two in that class. "Normal Man" was reserved for children and the weakest of adults.
ReplyDeleteThe innkeeper of Grita Heath, for example, is a 4th level fighter, as is the cart builder. The toolmaker is a 7th level fighter, while the miller is 6th level! Even beggars have levels (and their own special class, too).
There are nearly 700 residents described in the City State of the Invincible Overlord with an average level of 4.56 and a median of 4th level. Certainly, there are still a good number of 1st level NPCs, but on the whole, in the world of the Wilderlands, which is as sandbox OD&D style as you get, the bulk of folk you will meet are competent... often more competent than the starting characters ever were!
And villagers are tougher than the guys in the city, even; they have to be to survive, as they don't have the greater numbers or the great walls. So when you are dealing with a village of 120 able-bodied men (or women) with an average of 4th level... that's pretty damn tough.
I always dealt with that "problem" by just assuming that certain parts of the world were "civilized" and had few monsters in them while other parts of the world were still untamed wildlands full of monsters, goblins, and other dangerous things. It was a feudal world, so the duty of the king was to protect his people from monsters an bands of marauders. Most of the "adventuring" occurred at the borders of the kingdom, where settlements were fortified towns or even just military outposts.
ReplyDeleteOf course, my vision of D&D was heavily influenced by "The Keep on the Borderlands", so there is that I suppose.
Rifts has the kewlest solution to this.
ReplyDeleteYou know, the phrase "Gygaxian icons" got me thinking, and the end result is realizing that the only monsters I ever consciously _thought of_ as "Gygaxian" were Modrons. I think by the time I noticed there was such a writer as Gygax, the other D&D monsters were already internalized the point where I didn't make a distinction (ditto for all the monsters in the Fiend Folio, which is why they'll always just be core D&D to me and I never quite grokked why some other DMs saw them as oddities).
ReplyDeleteAnd for the life of me, I can't even remember off the top of my head of Modrons were Gygax creations, or if I was just assuming they were (along with assuming they represent a night when someone forgot to bring the lead minis and they were stuck using dice, and didn't want to just fight Gelatinous Cubes again).
What's more, it's unclear how normal villages, with at best a token first-level farmboy-turned hero to defend them, deal with an intrusion by even the lowly catoblepas. Surely, a world where the various D&D monsters roam around should pretty much have a few giant, walled fortress-cities defended by epic mages and warriors, from which farming teams sally forth each morning escorted by magically armed guards, ready to use their teleport wands to spirit the fieldworkers back into the city at the first sign of a marauding band of rabid hadrosaurs.
ReplyDeleteHeh. The guys in my gaming group in North Carolina back in the 80s used to talk like this.
I'd just go play Gauntlet and let them work it out of their systems. Once they were done, I'd run some more D&D for 'em.
Actually, one other factor comes to mind... it's something that a lot of folks forgot to use even back in the day, and no loger exists in 3E or v3.5... morale.
ReplyDeleteEven some "tough" critters weren't much in the way of morale. Chimera? Only a 9. Griffon? 8. Same as the Triceratops or Black Dragon. Kobolds only have a 6, Goblins 7, Hobgoblins or Orcs 8.
BTB, After the first death in a combat, half of the goblins in a group will flee, on the average. Stats were about same in 1E and 2E.
I guess in 3E the DM just adjudicates it, though my experience with other DMs is that it is understood that combats last until all the bad guys are dead, because, well, the PCs are supposed to kill them all (save for the one that is earmarked for capture to reveal the next story hook).
Morale beat the hell out of a lot of my encounters back in the day, as it well should have. The PLAYERS never had to roll; they could be as batshiat insane berserker stand-to-the-death as they wanted, but eventually, the bad guys would run away if given half a chance... which is only smart. Nobody would REALLY stand and fight to the death unless defending their home or children or they are berserker zealots (Morale 12, never fail)...
Of course, the rule is not perfect. BTB, a lone creature encountering a lone character never rolls morale, as morale is only rolled upon the first death and upon losing 1/2 your forces. So a lone goblin would always stay and fight a lone 20th level fighter.
Also, animals and such should have gotten another morale check when they first take damage... few animals, unless starving, take on creatures that can seriously fight back!
But anyway, yeah, morale... can cut to the quick with the beasties. I gotta reinstate that in my C&C games...
Good call on the importance of morale, James. It's formal inclusion in the rules, especially the easy-peasy system in Basic/Expert, radically changes how PCs operate. A group of even first level PCs can take on large numbers of humanoids and hope to force a route by concentrating fire on a single member of the opposition.
ReplyDeleteFor lone monsters, I always counted 50% hit point loss as 50% casualties and sometimes I did a morale check at the first wound received.
James Mishler! I remember you from Galactic Greg's back when I was a wee register monkey! How are ya?
ReplyDeleteI always thought it odd that morale never popped into 3rd edition, although everyone I've run with usually accounted for it in their own way (Intelligence checks were a common solution).
As for giving everyone a character class, I think what killed that notion was the old joke about every blacksmith being a high-level retired adventurer. I would guess that, like many ideas in rpgs that gone by the wayside, overuse and over exaggeration probably did it in. I can remember many a game where players would try to intimidate or flat-out rob shopkeeps only to find themselves on the receiving end of a longsword, or to simply be told "Nope, he's too high level for you to fight". And so another attempt to add some believability to the setting gets kicked to the curb as a cliched "DM screwjob". Thats the opinion of someone who missed out on everything pre-2nd ed, so take it with a grain of salt.
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ReplyDelete