tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post8757325828021709008..comments2024-03-27T22:32:17.055-05:00Comments on Jeffs Gameblog: I think we're getting Dissociated Mechanics wrongJeff Rientshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-23979224205466517462012-06-15T10:54:12.321-05:002012-06-15T10:54:12.321-05:00@Recursion King
This is not really the place for ...@Recursion King<br /><br />This is not really the place for this discussion, but I failed my internet comment save.<br /><br />My philosophy is heavily informed by history. Nationalism as understood today is a relatively recent historical phenomena. Probably from around the time of the French Revolution, depending on how you draw your definitions. It is an extremely potent and potentially destructive force.<br /><br />My genetics say Czech, German, and English (in roughly descending proportions). Both of my families have been in North America for at least three generations. Why should I privilege this bit of genetic flotsam and jetsam? Why should this be an important part of identity? There are many more important aspects of identity. Political philosophy, aesthetics, sexuality.<br /><br />Also, there is plenty of heritage that is not worth pride. There is also much that is, but it's silly to value your own overmuch; by the numbers, for any given individual, most past advances will belong to other civilizations.<br /><br />I agree that solidarity is necessary for defence agains agression sometimes. But what has been the source of that aggression, more cases than not, in the past century? National pride. And this solidarity against agression instinct is so strongly wired into our brains that it needs no support. Very subtle framing in social science experiments can dramatically affect how people react to agression.<br /><br />Political allegiance did not used to be primarily about nations (we can thank President Wilson and the aftermath of World War I for solidifying that). It used to be primarily organized by multinational empires, which had both benefits and downsides. Is the lack of a state for a particular people enough of a drawback for the cosmopolitanism and stability made possible by an empire? These are not black and white things, as much as the "soccer cheerleader" nationalists would like to see them as such.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-67804192561826668172012-06-15T10:16:12.714-05:002012-06-15T10:16:12.714-05:00'there are plenty of social psychology and his...'there are plenty of social psychology and history examples; look up "negational identity" and "nationalism"' ... said like someone who has no pride in their heritage and/or doesn't know much about who they are or where they have come from. You should be proud of your heritage, go look at your history and go find out who your ancestors were. Only then will you be rooted. This is a big problem today (especially among the young), many people feel like they have no identity, that they are adrift in an uncaring world, because they are not connecting with the past. A national identity is necessary to be strong: if you are invaded you will need it to repel the invaders and stay alive. So do not be so quick to attack such things and instead learn about your own heritage and get a better understanding of the world - and your place within it.The Recursion Kingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-41036509758493026372012-06-15T10:10:21.229-05:002012-06-15T10:10:21.229-05:00Actually, I think that Wizards had this tabletop g...Actually, I think that Wizards had this tabletop game and when they got the rights to D&D they 'skinned' it with D&Disms and thought, job done.The Recursion Kingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-71235797843790891762012-06-11T10:52:16.108-05:002012-06-11T10:52:16.108-05:00In many cases it's easy to associate mechanics...In many cases it's easy to associate mechanics. Sometimes the rules don't associate them to give each GM something to customize. Healing surges are an easy one for me. I see this as the innate resources of your body and spirit. You call on this when you get your second wind or get magically healed. After a while, the magic still works, but you are too wounded/tired/disheartened to respond to the magic.Philo Pharynxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14785954267292226321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-27543536186446491012012-06-10T17:34:29.751-05:002012-06-10T17:34:29.751-05:00I am having trouble understanding what a dissociat...I am having trouble understanding what a dissociated mechanic is after reading all the comments here.<br /><br />If a "healing surge" that can only be used once per combat is defined as "dissociated" then it seems to me the major component for that definition is not the relationship between Player-PC or something along that line.<br /><br />The main defining factor is *time* followed by verisimilitude. <br /><br />What does "once per combat" mean? How much does a combat last? From one round to several turns (for a major battle). <br /><br />So if a character takes part in major battle that lasts half of a morning he can only use one healing surge? What if he retreats, has a cup of tea and returns to the fray again later, can he re-use it? If no, why so? If yes what prevents him from retreating every other round to "recharge" his healing surge? And how does all this make sense?<br /><br />Vancian magic, for instance, does make sense and has a clear time definition, whether you like it or not (I don't, as written). You get X spells per day, must memorize and forget them when you cast them. You poor brain can only handle one bout of re-memorizing spells for each rest period (i.e. sleep cycle) but you get better at it (can memorize more spells) with experience. Deal with it.<br /><br />What you *don't* have to deal with is: you get X spells to memorize and use within a random and highly variable interval of time that is defined by something arbitrarily with no correlation to how reality works.<br /><br />I can "grok" that a magician can only use a certain amount of magic per day (rest cycle), whether that is expressed in spell slots or spell points, the same way I understand a person can only spend so much time per day calculating differential equations before his brain says "enough! I need rest!".<br /><br />I can't grok a magician only using X amount of magic during something akin to a movie scene that has a hugely elastic timeframe.Vargrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11511648623917764616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-77547203127311759442012-06-10T17:03:14.171-05:002012-06-10T17:03:14.171-05:00"This sounds like tribal thinking to me."..."This sounds like tribal thinking to me."<br /><br />Your point being? You make it sound like tribal thinking is a bad thing. Tribal thinking gave us the OSR and our wonderful old-school blog and forum communities.<br /><br />"There's really nothing to win or lose here anyways."<br /><br />Except the most important resource of all: players. Expanding the demographics of gamers that play the same game(s) you do at the detriments of others<br /><br />And if you don't think that is worth "winning" try living in a community were people *only* play Vampire and 4th Ed and then tell me how much fun it is.Vargrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11511648623917764616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-28359667518134713172012-06-10T16:22:00.107-05:002012-06-10T16:22:00.107-05:00I don't believe the problem to be dissociated ...I don't believe the problem to be dissociated rules, but TOO MANY freaking rules. In that regard, 1st ED has the same problems as 4th ED, the game is too complicated and top-heavy with rules. A simpler, rules lite game leads to improvisation and better immersion, IMHO.DaveLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01837748113498012191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-59184939199547071602012-06-10T16:10:27.163-05:002012-06-10T16:10:27.163-05:00According to "The Alexandrian," a dissoc...According to "The Alexandrian," a dissociated mechanic is defined thusly:<br />"If you are manipulating mechanics which are dissociated from your character – which have no meaning to your character – then you are not engaged in the process of playing a role."<br /><br />So dice rolling would be a dissociated mechanic, by his definition, since unless your character is a gambler, would seldom if ever roll dice. So, by his definition, any game mechanic that is not actual role playing would be a dissociated mechanic.<br /><br />I don't get it, what's the beef?DaveLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01837748113498012191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-12799114428323399092012-06-10T15:15:11.665-05:002012-06-10T15:15:11.665-05:00I don't read Zak's comment as saying anyth...I don't read Zak's comment as saying anything about tactical infinity (unless you mean on G+ somewhere). It's an interesting and new, to me, aspect of this whole thing.Telecanterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238356788092725244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-4254533011530669502012-06-10T14:23:31.829-05:002012-06-10T14:23:31.829-05:00Something I posted in the comments to the Primer t...Something I posted in the comments to the Primer that seems pertinent to this discussion. Someone was asking about Force points from Star Wars D6 (which are very similar to the Big Purple D30 in terms of usage at the table):<br /><br />Re: Force/Character/Action/Fate points. In Star Wars D6 we often played the use of these points as someone using the Force to “nudge” the results. In retrospect, I recognize this as being an instinctual desire to associate the mechanic.<br /><br />But in general, yes, those are dissociated mechanics. And they’re a great example, because they seem to be a dissociated mechanic that a lot of people who otherwise have problems with dissociated mechanics don’t have a problem with (including myself). I suspect there are several reasons for that: First, they are a flexible tool that can be used by many different creative agendas to alleviate moments of disappointment created by the random chance of the dice.<br /><br />Second, the decision to use them is not only dissociated from your character, but in fact completely separate from them. The mechanic offers the player a method of influencing the game world without acting through their character, but it is clearly completely separate from their character. By contrast, if such mechanics require the character to take an action in order to use the Action Point, people start to find the mechanic more problematic.<br /><br />Third, the influence on the game world is not so severe that it creates cognitive dissonance between the experience of the character and the experience of the player. (The easiest way to understand this, in my opinion, is to look at the act of exploration in the game world: If mechanics give me the ability to create or control what my character is discovering, then my experience is of a radically different qualitative nature from the character’s.)<br /><br />I think these can be valuable criteria to use in assessing whether or not a dissociated mechanic is worth the price (by either raising its value or minimizing its cost):<br /><br />1) Does it allow the player to satisfy a creative agenda or other goal in a way that an associated mechanic could not?<br /><br />2) Is the player’s decision to use the dissociated mechanic clearly separated from the decisions the player makes while playing their character?<br /><br />3) Can the effect of the dissociated mechanic be limited so that the player’s relationship with the game world isn’t fundamentally different than the character’s relationship with the game world?Justin Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02227895898395353754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-85321254542142194892012-06-10T13:26:42.111-05:002012-06-10T13:26:42.111-05:00And Brendan, that makes the ruling more associated...And Brendan, that makes the ruling more associated in a setting. No argument...as long as you have % spell failure in your game. But as long as the in-game logic is there, sounds good to me.LordVreeghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11436259339492497035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-73877106212330359572012-06-10T10:19:37.596-05:002012-06-10T10:19:37.596-05:00I always thought of armor restrictions being about...I always thought of armor restrictions being about freedom of movement, so in that light leather could still cause a small chance of spell failure.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-88773026207753283012012-06-10T10:13:05.125-05:002012-06-10T10:13:05.125-05:00Having designed my own rules from the ground up a ...Having designed my own rules from the ground up a few times, it was interesting to note that the things I changed 10-30 years earlier were, in effect, mving rules down the continuum to be more associated. It is one of the reasons I eventually went skill based...so that I could give experience in a skill that was being used, instead of making a thief a better lockpick because he killed a few more enemies.<br />Armor restrictions on certain actions make sense, and sometimes within game logic, like maybe metal affects spell casting...but that never explained why mages could not wear leather...LordVreeghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11436259339492497035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-46424433886167676412012-06-10T07:59:57.567-05:002012-06-10T07:59:57.567-05:00d'oh Zak already said that. Sorry.d'oh Zak already said that. Sorry.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-50349781567985416582012-06-10T07:57:06.893-05:002012-06-10T07:57:06.893-05:00This thread's getting time-tangled.
Brendan&#...This thread's getting time-tangled. <br />Brendan's Untimately post (below) raises a great point about 4e combat mechanics and dissociation; such mechanics aren't subject to tactical infinity - they are moves you can pull off in the set circumstances, but not tools the player can always use in surprising ways. I know it's a separate issue, but it seems to me one of the difficulties dissociation is liable to bring in: objects-in-the-world can be used any way you can think of, but special situational rules are more like videogame tokens - only usable in the way envisioned by the designer. AND this makes the game harder to navigate because the player must inhabit 2 imaginary spaces at once: the world of what their character experiences plus the world of the rules and tokens. <br /><br />Of course 4e didn't invent this.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-53422048269677793312012-06-10T07:56:36.041-05:002012-06-10T07:56:36.041-05:00I used to find that rolling your attributes and th...I used to find that rolling your attributes and then picking your 'race' felt wrong, because that's not what would happen in real life.<br /><br />For some reason I didn't find that picking your race at all felt wrong.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-57767796887548729152012-06-10T07:52:04.332-05:002012-06-10T07:52:04.332-05:00To me gaining levels is a "not very associate...To me gaining levels is a "not very associated mechanic". It's easy to see what it represents in the game world (at least for fighters and thieves, not so much for magic-users), but the way that you get everything in a big jump isn't how you'd imagine it to work in real life.<br /><br />I suppose that's why Basic Roleplaying has (as far as I know) more frequent but more gradual improvement.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-60977552209417700352012-06-10T07:37:39.648-05:002012-06-10T07:37:39.648-05:00Yeah but the associaton/dissociation distinction i...Yeah but the associaton/dissociation distinction isn't really about whether it "makes sense" or whether the player's first choice to make the in-setting logic for magic use work in a Vancian way. The text says, and assumes, magic works in a bullet-in-the-caster's mind way.<br /><br />If you had a setting where a warrior studied like The Mystery of Vancian Boxing and had to prepare some kind of mental/chi configuration by doing special katas and that was unraveled each time the move executed, that might seem like weird or atypical situation to many players, but would still be associated.<br /><br />You can <i>change</i> dissociated rules to become associated, as long at it's a certain framework the character works within.Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09873430636366896071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-44967557255879125972012-06-10T07:29:42.266-05:002012-06-10T07:29:42.266-05:00I disagree. Rules that are related to imaginary th...I disagree. Rules that are related to imaginary things that are real to the <i>character's</i> reality are still associated. So if magic in the character's world follows a Vancey "you memorize it" procedure, spell memorization and casting can be considered associated because the character's decision making process goes "today I put these five spells in my brain. I will use one of them." If the character ostensibly just "does magic" by will, yet the player can only use each spell once per day because of the rules, that becomes dissociated from the character's decision making.Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09873430636366896071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-28965239932248829452012-06-10T07:24:30.126-05:002012-06-10T07:24:30.126-05:00Yeah the "you just can't" weapon and...Yeah the "you just can't" weapon and armor restrictions are dissociated. Really, many forms of character creation/advancement are.Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09873430636366896071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-23646686114917178262012-06-10T07:22:53.612-05:002012-06-10T07:22:53.612-05:00Many of the limited use martial powers are fairly ...Many of the limited use martial powers are fairly meta in that they involve the player being able to "engineer the opportunity" for the character to use the ability.Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09873430636366896071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-74128635130344226982012-06-09T23:52:34.512-05:002012-06-09T23:52:34.512-05:00Thanks for the link; it's a pretty good essay ...Thanks for the link; it's a pretty good essay (says a lot of the same points I've been trying to get across in a far more eloquent fashion).<br /><br />I think your three vectors are good topics of discussion, especially from a design perspective...it's interesting (to me anyway) that the games I've been working on most recently have mechanics that could be considered strongly disassociated...and yet, the players who have play-tested the game feel MORE connected to their characters from a roleplaying stance (which is, duh, the reason I play RPGs in the first place), and they're not particularly "indie-style," "narratavist agenda" games.<br /><br />Food for thought...thanks!<br />: )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-42967042616745277822012-06-09T23:12:05.678-05:002012-06-09T23:12:05.678-05:00And a longer response:
http://untimately.blogspot...And a longer response:<br /><br /><a href="http://untimately.blogspot.com/2012/06/meaning-first.html" rel="nofollow">http://untimately.blogspot.com/2012/06/meaning-first.html</a>Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-55459695125904866732012-06-09T21:31:40.766-05:002012-06-09T21:31:40.766-05:00@Kent
See "come and get it" example abo...@Kent<br /><br />See "come and get it" example above. That is not metagaming, but it is a dissociated mechanic.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-91999834013252097032012-06-09T21:30:36.518-05:002012-06-09T21:30:36.518-05:00Realism is a different issue. The question here is...Realism is a different issue. The question here is whether or not there is something in the game world causing the effect rather than an after the fact explanation of the thing.<br /><br />Example one. Floating platform upon which is a lectern with two buttons: "up" and "down." Press the up button and the platform rises at a fixed rate. Press the down button and the platform lowers. It's hovering in midair and there are no magnetic fields or anything. It just works like that, you don't know why. Not realistic, but it is associated. You can reason about it diegetically.<br /><br />Example two. 4E level 7 fighter power "come and get it": it's a burst 3 power, which means it affects every enemy in a 15' radius (but not your allies). Targets that can shift two and become adjacent to you do so, and then you get to make a weapon vs. AC attack against them. This is realistic (people are moving toward you, you are hitting them) but not associated. Why are they moving toward you? Why do you as a player have the ability to affect the movement of your enemies? You can come up with an after the fact narrative explanation, but the meaning is secondary and the effect is primary.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.com