tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post4937204832463702013..comments2024-03-18T02:49:18.084-05:00Comments on Jeffs Gameblog: In which I pick on Ron Edwards just a bitJeff Rientshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-23080080273796124652009-03-30T19:21:00.000-05:002009-03-30T19:21:00.000-05:00Hi Jeff. I know this post is months old and the co...Hi Jeff. I know this post is months old and the conversation, but as I'm the guy that came up with the term "cargo cult" I thought I'd pop up with a slight clarification - more for some of the comments to this post than to anything you say, which I think sounds pretty accurate. <BR/><BR/>First, I shouldn't and wouldn't speak for Ron Edwards, but I think Wulfgar is right: whatever you want to call it, he was not criticizing the "Cargo Cult" / "Old School" era. Indeed, I think Ron is nostalgic for it in many ways. <BR/><BR/>But then Lawful Neutral asks: "So who were the D&D cargo cultists imitating? What key part of playing D&D did they misunderstand?"<BR/><BR/>In the post of mine that Ron was citing when he said "Rob MacDougall said it best," I was describing MYSELF as a cargo cultist: myself at age 10 to be precise, when I wasn't old enough to go the hobby store by myself and had never seen an issue of Dragon magazine and had to piece together how the whole game and hobby worked from the odd mix of books I had somehow acquired.<BR/><BR/>I want to make it VERY clear that in using the term "cargo cult" I was never looking down my nose at any other gamers and claiming they were "doing it wrong." I don't think Ron was either, but again: not speaking for him.<BR/><BR/>OK, thanks for letting me get that off my chest. :)Rob MacDougallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08062764977151219393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-51732044078675680972009-03-29T17:58:00.000-05:002009-03-29T17:58:00.000-05:00@dave:Speaking of which, does anyone know if there...@dave:<BR/><BR/>Speaking of which, does anyone know if there's a story behind why the <I>Hackmaster</I> DMG doesn't have the Wandering Harlot Table?<BR/><BR/>I mean, if there was <B>one single thing</B> from AD&D that should have been turned into a gonzo Hackmaster d10,000-roll, it's <B>that</B>, narmean?Adam Thorntonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06368676086759298705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-85921063989756458992008-09-25T19:42:00.000-05:002008-09-25T19:42:00.000-05:00Jeff, we all know you keep referring to your 1E DM...Jeff, we all know you keep referring to your 1E DMG for the random prostitutes table, not for "moral support". <BR/><BR/>Or wait, is there even a difference?Dave Yhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09485345030558890105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-44481479840753127202008-09-24T15:46:00.000-05:002008-09-24T15:46:00.000-05:00Yet another example of my love/hate relationship w...Yet another example of my love/hate relationship with Edwards and his opinions. He's a smart guy, with some good ideas about gaming, but damn, sometimes he thinks just a liiiiitle too much. Sorcerer & Sword is a great supplement, but it backs a pretty crappy game and while it's got some really good ideas, they are couched in a totally unappealing manner. I think the same thing goes for what he's saying in that quoted material.Jack Badelairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10932441028544500024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-62309990309879639922008-09-24T10:16:00.000-05:002008-09-24T10:16:00.000-05:00Sentence above should ahve read:"As far as I ...Sentence above should ahve read:<BR/><BR/>"As far as I can tell, describing the playing of Dungeons & Dragons (of any era) <I>as "cargo cult"</I> is unsuitable at best and misleading at worst.<BR/><BR/>Whoops. :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-16540315570905946712008-09-24T06:52:00.000-05:002008-09-24T06:52:00.000-05:00Dan,1e is definitely the beginning of the industry...Dan,<BR/><BR/>1e is definitely the beginning of the industry's obsession with "official;" that was pretty much the whole point of <I>AD&D</I>. The hobby, on the other hand, by which I mean the average player, was much less obsessed with officialdom until comparatively recently (late 80s, I'd say).James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-88478748830614962462008-09-24T02:00:00.000-05:002008-09-24T02:00:00.000-05:00I don't get the cargo cult metaphor at all. T...I don't get the cargo cult metaphor at all. The thing about cargo cultists is that they saw people doing something (building airstrips, getting cargo) and imitated them as best they could without understanding how how or why it worked. Naturally, it didn't work for them.<BR/><BR/>So who were the D&D cargo cultists imitating? What key part of playing D&D did they misunderstand? What Edwards describes in that paragraph after mentioning cargo cults, though it's interesting and for all I know perfectly accurate, has nothing to do with cargo cults!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-4222755629141962912008-09-23T23:37:00.000-05:002008-09-23T23:37:00.000-05:00@ James Maliszewski; I'm not sure I agree with you...@ James Maliszewski; I'm not sure I agree with you that "What's changed from the early days, though, is that the producers of RPGs place much more emphasis on "official" content."<BR/><BR/>I just read an article by Gary Gygax from an early Dragon in which he cribs about all the unauthorized third party material that was popping up. I also seem to recall that there were warning in the 1e books about unauthorized or unofficial material. So to me, the idea that official=better really began at least just before 1e was released, and was in full swing after 1e was released. I think it was a reaction to competition by unauthorized sources.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-89213972302678853262008-09-23T20:05:00.000-05:002008-09-23T20:05:00.000-05:00I think the difference is that Gygax's D&D...I think the difference is that Gygax's D&D gives you some relatively unconnected subsystem structures to 'get you started' in producing your own FRP experience; Forge games, on the other hand, use the rules as a truncheon to beat you into submission until you are playing exactly and only the game that the designer insists that you play.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-49552854718776649722008-09-23T17:17:00.000-05:002008-09-23T17:17:00.000-05:00I think that passage typifies my problem with heav...I think that passage typifies my problem with heavy theoretical thinking. The thinkers sometimes lack the vocabulary to express their ideas, so take pre existing phrases or words and invest them with new meaning.<BR/><BR/>As far as I can tell, describing the playing of <I>Dungeons & Dragons</I> (of any era) is unsuitable at best and misleading at worst.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-26837365041579675372008-09-23T14:55:00.000-05:002008-09-23T14:55:00.000-05:00@Restless: Agreed, but charm and love aren't every...@Restless: Agreed, but charm and love aren't everything. The pre-compiled circuitry and software of the typical Engadget product is more likely to work for larger numbers of people. Large numbers of professionals are, sad to say, likely to do a better job of producing useful products than most folks. Do-it-yourselfers will always be more rare and fringe than gadget-consumers.<BR/><BR/>I guess the "problem" with indie types is an inclination to take gaming seriously. If it's worth doing, then it should be worth engineering. If I genuinely think that roleplaying is something that should be as common an experience/pastime as reading books and watching movies (hint: I do), then I would want people to set about making or figuring out how to make the slickest, least demanding and most broadly appealing range of products possible.<BR/><BR/>Some days, I find it the distinction between "Old School" and "Indie" as clear as that between "Existentialism" and "Philosophy." People play what they like, right? How could we not be in agreement on that?<BR/><BR/>Also: the randomly-generated word verification captcha as I write this comment is "dorko." Sweet.Nick Novitskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08863651199447917923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-41774950610286852222008-09-23T14:32:00.000-05:002008-09-23T14:32:00.000-05:00I think the very fact that we even *have* concepts...I think the very fact that we even *have* concepts like OD&D, Holmes, Moldvay/Cook, AD&D, Mentzer, etc, is a pretty good indicator that the "cargo cult" era is long ended.<BR/><BR/>The lack of such clear distinctions and the standardized "big picture" of the game that they allow one to form is the key thing.<BR/><BR/>"hardly anyone knew much about what books "went" when, or made much distinction between TSR products and anything else"Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-82750131531138329342008-09-23T12:56:00.000-05:002008-09-23T12:56:00.000-05:00Funny, when I read the article, I didn't take ...Funny, when I read the article, I didn't take "cargo cult" as a slight as all, in fact I thought he sounded like he missed it.<BR/><BR/>In any case, I'm a proud old-school cargo-cultist of rpgs. <BR/><BR/>I began with a mishmash of AD&D and the various Basic sets.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-65496611039591438602008-09-23T12:22:00.000-05:002008-09-23T12:22:00.000-05:00You're not allowed to be that nice to Ron. Watch o...You're not allowed to be that nice to Ron. Watch out, you'll get yourself kicked out of the old school club.Ed Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01262472490580424119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-35091814527291690322008-09-23T11:41:00.000-05:002008-09-23T11:41:00.000-05:00I consider myself part of a strange Cryptic Allian...I consider myself part of a strange Cryptic Alliance that's 2 parts Restorationists, 1 part Archivists. Preserving the past while putting it to uses that the Ancients might never have intended. ;-)Michael Curtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13217338828086458862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-67991959989294859472008-09-23T11:12:00.000-05:002008-09-23T11:12:00.000-05:00I don't know if Cargo Cult is intended as a slight...I don't know if Cargo Cult is intended as a slight, but I think I may start wearing it like a badge of honor... Must be a way I can even work it into the plot.<BR/><BR/>I think of Old School or Cargo Cult gamers as hot rodders. The precision design of the Indie or Forge game is often fun, but you can't drive a F1 racer the same places you could drive a 41 Ford Coupe.Doctor Checkmatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14931626536197815282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-35244048805965494742008-09-23T10:23:00.000-05:002008-09-23T10:23:00.000-05:00Awesome!I wish I had seen it this way back then. ...Awesome!<BR/><BR/>I wish I had seen it this way back then. You are so right about that. It explains the 'gap' as you put it; the antipathy to so-called broken games (which just need a bit of cargo-cult faith) and how embattled they've become.<BR/><BR/>I'm going to think about that situation in this fashion from now on. Thank you so much!<BR/><BR/>Fang Langford<BR/>Creator of <A HREF="http://scattershotgames.com/scatterwiki" REL="nofollow">the Scattershot Role-Playing Game</A>Fang Langfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17342369373992644052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-56821505395873809072008-09-23T10:15:00.000-05:002008-09-23T10:15:00.000-05:00In most (not all) forge games too narrow in focus ...In most (not all) forge games too narrow in focus for my taste. They limits potential possibilities too much. Because of that I find they have limited replay value. <BR/><BR/>It is not just Forge any RPG that homes in on a singular aspect of a gameworld (Vampire, Ars Magica, etc) has this issue. <BR/><BR/>In the past I use these types of games to further develop the background of the Majestic Wilderlands. The sewers of City-State crawl with the Nosfertu, while the Questors of the Guild of Arcane Lore enlist the PCs aids in hunting down demon summoning Sorcerors.Robert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-75269479732058790592008-09-23T09:58:00.000-05:002008-09-23T09:58:00.000-05:00Indie games are to old school games as Engadget is...Indie games are to old school games as Engadget is to Make Magazine, both in the philosophy and the fact that the shiny may be clever and interesting, but there's a lot less charm and love under the hood than something somebody puts together in their basement.Restlesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586442439173490257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-79178070303174501442008-09-23T09:56:00.000-05:002008-09-23T09:56:00.000-05:00"Cargo cult" gaming is still alive and well, thank..."Cargo cult" gaming is still alive and well, thanks to the Net. What's changed from the early days, though, is that the producers of RPGs place much more emphasis on "official" content than they used, with "official" sometimes being a synonym for "right."James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.com