tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post7299713796877737237..comments2024-03-27T22:32:17.055-05:00Comments on Jeffs Gameblog: a mental journeyJeff Rientshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-50393604999464412142011-08-08T09:20:03.115-05:002011-08-08T09:20:03.115-05:00tsojcanth, I don't really disagree with your M...tsojcanth, I don't really disagree with your Marxist criticism of the function of the medieval church. I'm not saying all the priests will be goody-goodies in the name of Christ or anything like that. I just need a stand-in for the very real authority they hold over people's lives. And in a game where magic is already a given, allowing clerics their traditional game powers seems like the path of least resistance.Jeff Rientshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-24500763551936805702011-08-07T08:13:25.059-05:002011-08-07T08:13:25.059-05:00I know I mind sound a bit like the lunatic fringe-...I know I mind sound a bit like the lunatic fringe-leftist-anarch-marxist I am, but the reason the warrior chaste first and nation states later kept clergy around (and put bishops and priors in place for a big chunk of the middle ages) and shared some of their power with them is to control the poor, unwashed, non-empowered masses and teach them that if they're obedient and accept their place in this life, it's better for them. And not just in Christian Europe.<br /><br />So, yes, not only clerics in D&D are completely disjointed from what clergy was, but also are a kluge of a character class, with some MU-like spellcasting that bears no link on whether they are pious or they follow their religion at all: there are no rules for adherence to religion and faith, so most times this really rich aspect of the game and human societies is completely ignored.<br /><br />So, yeah, I'm getting rid of clerics (as mentioned on Plus), but introduce cults. Will post on it this September.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-63930640777487689182011-08-07T00:38:20.914-05:002011-08-07T00:38:20.914-05:00I spent a year playing a cleric in a friend's ...I spent a year playing a cleric in a friend's campaign, and found he kind of ended up playing a lot of roles related to the infrastructure of our adventuring band. <br /><br />I handled last rites and inheritance, I kept the party's general purpose slush fund, and I was the Human Resources guy for our hirelings. I also tended to end up as what passed for our party's diplomat, since I had a non-negative charisma bonus (not a positive one either, mind you) and wasn't demonstrably insane. <br /><br />In short, I seemed to end up as a cleric in terms of the other definition of the word, a.k.a. clerical. And it worked for me. I wasn't really a spotlight guy, but I'd like to think I was one of the lynch pins of the party's structure. It was a fun role to play. <br /><br />P.S. Apropos to nothin', 'cept the kind folksy angle I used for The Deacon (he was largely structured after Wellman's Silver John character) my captcha word is crambno, as in "froggy went a courtin' he did ride, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEQOuDc6vXg" rel="nofollow">c-c-c-c-crambno</a>" <br /><br />Sorry, it's late and I'm nonsensical. Can't be helped.BigFellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03052419088140204154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-55970567365041632472011-08-06T11:43:44.558-05:002011-08-06T11:43:44.558-05:00Personally, I consider 80's era Runequest to b...Personally, I consider 80's era Runequest to be a RPG that specialized in clerics. If one was looking for ideas about how to integrate polytheistic clerics into a campaign, one might look thereBiffTheYoungernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-13287795608943278612011-08-06T00:31:52.695-05:002011-08-06T00:31:52.695-05:00I've always felt the best intro to the OD&...I've always felt the best intro to the OD&D cleric is to read Gregory of Tour's "History of the Franks." It's a great introduction not only to "Dark Ages" life but also to the way clergy were viewed in that time... miracles were rife, clerics were very in-your-face, and there were even some who wore armor and wielded maces!James Mishlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03510782553325944558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-57195620786033344882011-08-05T19:32:12.122-05:002011-08-05T19:32:12.122-05:00I look forward to your future writings on the matt...I look forward to your future writings on the matter.<br /><br />I've been struggling with them in my setting as well, so it's good to read up on what others (like FrDave) have done.Alex Osiashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14851139031311819958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-1790646648250039672011-08-05T15:34:45.382-05:002011-08-05T15:34:45.382-05:00The problem I always had with clerics is that the ...The problem I always had with clerics is that the party seemed to expect them to focus on healing them up after a fight, so that was where they had to put their spell levels instead of into other things that may have been more interesting.<br /><br />I'd be interested in playing a cleric of a war god, who has no healing spells at all, or maybe a cleric of a death god who is focused on easing the journey of the soul from the grave to it's eternal resting place and thus sees healing as running counter to his religion. <br /><br />I'm sure there are other examples of non-standard clerics that could be run to avoid the necessity of playing the party doctor.John Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15768771014487413321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-8368579182387289002011-08-05T13:34:44.968-05:002011-08-05T13:34:44.968-05:00I have to agree with StephenWarble that there is a...I have to agree with StephenWarble that there is an expectation that the first, last, and every other action be to heal the party. This is great if you're a fighter and want to go melee longer, for example, but playing the cleric can be rather frustrating. The metagame resentment that builds when it doesn't happen can tear apart groups. One solution for this that I have considered is that clerics (and sometimes magic users) have their choice of spells for the day. However, a given spell can only be used once, so when you heal the fighter with CLW, that's it. No more healing unless you have a higher level healing spell.<br /><br />I also suspect that there is a fault in the general religious order of game worlds, in that there are 10 or 20 or more different gods and goddesses, and one is expected to represent one of them. This means that clerics can be somewhat pigeonholed by their faith, and that the faith does not seem relevant to other characters. I have never played in a game where non-clerics had any professed religion at all without being forced to it.<br /><br />I think treating these various gods as members of unified pantheons would be more productive. Bob Cleric is no longer a priest of, say, Thor, but of the Nordic pantheon and it's values. Other characters might be more willing to get religion if it just means following a few general principles, and thus buy in to the cleric. You could also induce them with bonuses to upholding their religion, say +1 to saving throws. By generalizing the religion and encouraging buy-in from other players, it may make the cleric seem like less of an odd-ball choice.Skydyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12547022250810401131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-83862977403864437532011-08-05T04:28:01.582-05:002011-08-05T04:28:01.582-05:00@Stuart: My players don't really think in thos...@Stuart: My players don't really think in those terms, though. They don't look at the rules and decide which class will give them the greatest game benefits. They look at the descriptions of the classes and pick one they think will make a cool/fun character to play (I run AD&D, for context). <br />I don't think the weakness of the cleric has ever lain in the rules, but in the flavour. If my players are encouraged to think of the cleric as not only a battle-priest, but potentially an oriental mystic, an Obi-Wan type, an ancient witch, a cabalistic commander of spirits, or similarly varied characters, and if the rules actively support that interpretation at least a litle bit so it doesn't feel tacked on, then I think the cleric will quickly change from the least to the most popular class in my group. I'll see, once we start the next campaign.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07090296806321882601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-17547117272462558052011-08-04T19:50:43.858-05:002011-08-04T19:50:43.858-05:00I think the Cleric is hands down the best class fo...I think the Cleric is hands down the best class for B/X D&D at low levels. Keep in mind the classes don't level up at the same rate. At 3,000 xp you get these levels and average hit points:<br />Cleric 3 ~ 12hp<br />Dwarf 2 ~ 10hp<br />Elf 1 ~ 4hp (ouch)<br />Fighter 2 ~ 10hp<br />Halfling 2 ~ 8hp <br />Magic-User 2 ~ 6hp<br />Thief 3 ~ 9hp<br /><br />The Cleric could have an additional 2d6+2 (on average +10 more) hit points via Cure Light Wounds.<br /><br />Not to mention the excellent AC, the roleplaying hooks, versatility with spells, magic items and turning undead.<br /><br />I'm happy to play the Cleric. :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-72950489221916541612011-08-04T18:58:09.007-05:002011-08-04T18:58:09.007-05:00When I'm not DMing, I'm always the cleric,...When I'm not DMing, I'm always the cleric, though by choice more so than necessity.<br /><br />Then again, I cut my teeth on Type IV D&D, where Clerics are a little more powerful/balanced. Either that, or my tendency to play agnostic clerics, always being forsaken for their wishy-washiness.<br /><br />Also, DIY D&D stuff http://dungeonsdonuts.blogspot.com/Kiel Chenierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15016752327301291104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-74129276915322026892011-08-04T18:27:16.281-05:002011-08-04T18:27:16.281-05:00My beef with clerics is so complex and indefinable...My beef with clerics is so complex and indefinable that I've been writing and erasing this response for like ten minutes now.<br /><br />Is it because the idea of worshiping someone or something makes less sense to me, as an individual, than FTL travel, monster ecologies and magic spookums do? Is it because I don't like religions of any kind and that carries over into the self-gratifying realms of my fantasy life? Is it because I'm too lazy to read <i>GURPS Religion</i>?<br /><br />Man, I need to think about this...Dr Rotwanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16750632906878388570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-34139602838349934292011-08-04T15:53:44.820-05:002011-08-04T15:53:44.820-05:00My current thinking is to recast the cleric as ess...<i>My current thinking is to recast the cleric as essentially a mystic warrior - a fighter with magic powers.</i><br /><br />I've been thinking along similar lines for the B/X campaign I want to run, and I like your idea of taboos both constraining and deepening the class.<br /><br />As I'm imagining the setting, clerics are like paladins: divinely-empowered warriors on a mission to hunt down and eradicate Chaos. They venture into dungeons in order to exorcise them.Wade Rocketthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02785499425476736769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-77198615490428306842011-08-04T15:06:48.923-05:002011-08-04T15:06:48.923-05:00I've been mucking about with clerics in an eff...I've been mucking about with clerics in an effort to make them a more appealing player choice. My problem with the cleric is that regardless of how attractive a class it might be mechanically, thematically the default cleric is a crusades-era Christian priest bashing people with a mace, with a setting-appropriate deity substituted for Christ. Boring.<br />My current thinking is to recast the cleric as essentially a mystic warrior - a fighter with magic powers. Here's how:<br /><br />- Relax the weapon restrictions, basically to "anything that doesn't steal the fighter's schtick".<br /><br />- Apply the Wu Jen taboo rules from Oriental Adventures to clerics.<br /><br />The cleric's powers might come from a god or spirits, or from inner discipline and mental strength, or from an attunement to universal principles, or whatever. To represent this, the player picks a number of taboos - "cannot shed blood", "cannot light a fire", "cannot cut one's hair", or anything the player can come up with that meets DM approval. The taboos may be self-imposed, or they might be commandments from god, or ritualistic requirements. If the player violates one of these taboos, they lose their spell-casting ability until they have properly atoned.<br /><br />Not only does this allow clerics to represent a wider range of character archetypes, it ensures a certain degree of spirituality from clerics during play. The cleric character is set apart from the other classes by their need to observe these supernatural restrictions. At the same time, beyond those concrete observances they're free to develop their character as they like, without worrying about some woolly idea of how their god would want them to act.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07090296806321882601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-45851145256030635212011-08-04T15:02:06.300-05:002011-08-04T15:02:06.300-05:00Jeff, I can't recommend to you highly enough T...Jeff, I can't recommend to you highly enough The Magical Universe: Everyday Ritual and Magic in Pre-Modern Europe, by Stephen Wilson.Legionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14743073987491198533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-2456604290818270272011-08-04T13:44:27.129-05:002011-08-04T13:44:27.129-05:00Sorry, the reason I never want to play Clerics has...Sorry, the reason I never want to play Clerics has nothing to do with religion, or social ties, or whatever.<br /><br />It is because Cleric's exist primarily to generate healing, and every spell or action you take in combat that's not healing is resented. To test my theory, next combat have the cleric blow all their spells on combat effects, and tell the party there is no healing magic left.<br /><br />4E changed this, and Pathfinder has made a few changes, but in older editions of D&D this is the solemn truth, so help me Deities & Demigods!StevenWarblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12697680166430879676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-86600394098883325412011-08-04T13:14:47.423-05:002011-08-04T13:14:47.423-05:00Aw, hell, I'm at work and can't read this ...Aw, hell, I'm at work and can't read this now. <b>CRAP!</b>Dr Rotwanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16750632906878388570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-71647993469875188502011-08-04T13:13:49.926-05:002011-08-04T13:13:49.926-05:00I've written elsewhere about how I make my cle...I've written elsewhere about how I make my clerics only have a chance for miracles to be granted. Because I agree, the reliable bifurcated magic, you mention, never worked for me.<br /><br />One thing I really like about clerics is that they are the easiest way for a player to become a creative collaborator with me the DM. I don't come to the game table with a world fully formed. "What kind of god do you want to worship? Hmm, that's interesting I can imagine competing cults, there should probably be these rituals . . ." etc.Telecanterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238356788092725244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-39048816822785032282011-08-04T12:45:57.438-05:002011-08-04T12:45:57.438-05:00I think the reason most players are hesitant to pl...I think the reason most players are hesitant to play clerics (who have the ability to make even magic up'd fighters feel down right inadequate) is that they are so closely tied to a subject matter we've been trained to keep out of the public sphere — religion. <br /><br /><i>Have we crossed all the i's and dotted all the t's so that God doesn't get mad at us and sends us blessings rather than curses?</i><br />I would prefer the idea of actively allowing God into every facet of life. His very presence brings blessings. It is His <i>absence</i> which brings curses. Nonetheless, this is an excellent way to understand the role of a cleric (especially in a world like Wessex).<br /><br />I was particularly disappointed that you had excluded the cleric when you first started down the path of a Surfeit of Lampreys, because I see the cleric fitting quite nicely in to this type of campaign. I'm very pleased to see that you have changed your mind...FrDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459281821319914530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-7608278929215060692011-08-04T12:37:30.862-05:002011-08-04T12:37:30.862-05:00Clerics can be quite frustrating. In my opinion, a...Clerics can be quite frustrating. In my opinion, as a DM, they are really the one class that frustrates me the most n terms of making challenging adventures, especially for low levels, mainly because of all the damn bonus spells they get. I've always found them to be fairly unbalanced as a class in the early editions, but for some reason or another, most people don't want to play them. I guess its because of the ties to having to claim their character as a worshipper of this god or that goddess, whatever appropriate to the setting.<br /><br />The way I tend to run them, is by not granting them spells when their character has not been roleplaying the priestly aspect of the class. Its not just about running around performing cure light wounds every few minutes. Most people that play clerics don't try and rp the character of a priest (trying to comfort others through faith, convert non-believers, etc.) If a player doesn't play this up in one of my games, he just might find himself unable to get that Bless spell off when he really needs it.<br /><br />Anyway, I think you've got a great method to work them into your game.RobChandlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07751057765555584823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-44630694433106036982011-08-04T12:31:20.655-05:002011-08-04T12:31:20.655-05:00One of my biggest issues is that the clergy, being...<i>One of my biggest issues is that the clergy, being the most learned men in the land, are a great source for Magic-Users.</i><br /><br />Sounds about right:<br /><br /><i>"Morgan le Fay was put to school in a nunnery, and there she learned so much that she was a great clerk of necromancy"</i><br />Mallory, Morte d'ArthurMarkhttp://www.midcoast.com/~ricekrwc/zefrs/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-29568784813268693792011-08-04T12:15:37.755-05:002011-08-04T12:15:37.755-05:00The problem is that the Church's power is prim...<i>The problem is that the Church's power is primarily cultural. And players, being the bastards we all love, either ignore or gleefully flaunt such power.</i><br /><br />See, this is why I totally dig clerics, especially as a player. Direct line into the DM's setting & culture. Plus the afore-mentioned kickassitude. But I'm strange.Nataliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15528192783751011497noreply@blogger.com