tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post697857799103222134..comments2024-03-27T22:32:17.055-05:00Comments on Jeffs Gameblog: The Economics of IronwolfJeff Rientshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-14845345363377295412012-06-17T05:47:41.008-05:002012-06-17T05:47:41.008-05:00The pdf you made of comparative prices is EXACTLY ...The pdf you made of comparative prices is EXACTLY what I was looking for today. You even included the prices from the First Fantasy Campaign! Thankyou!Akiyamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01002160797943960637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-51719164652228647812009-10-28T12:15:51.071-05:002009-10-28T12:15:51.071-05:00"then including things that can be had free (..."then including things that can be had free (or things that money can’t buy) can be a good idea."<br /><br />I think that is the way to go for some stuff that is specific to your game style... in fact now that i think about it, Swords & Wizardry Core Rules has a weapons list that includes weapons that cost 0 GP (Clubs & Staves).<br /><br />And don't forget Iron Rods! handy to delay or stop traps of the architecture crunches adventurers kind, a lever so needed to force doors, and a very decent improvised weapon against skeletonsFelipe Budinichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09755101146972136119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-15070600958885278962008-05-02T20:14:00.000-05:002008-05-02T20:14:00.000-05:00Yea, plus don't forget about Random Encounter roll...Yea, plus don't forget about Random Encounter rolls... <BR/><BR/>I've had plenty of cheapskate groups who would rather risk it than "waste" a measly little gp...Greylondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09896610456503648984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-80924908181217618902008-05-01T14:50:00.000-05:002008-05-01T14:50:00.000-05:00It's also not necessarily so easy to just go cut y...It's also not necessarily so easy to just go cut your own 10' pole. Do you have permission to cut trees in the woods? Can you find a good tree? Do you want to spend the time to carve and sand it smooth?<BR/><BR/>It might well be worth paying the 1 gp or whatever a 10' pole costs.<BR/><BR/>FrankFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15855679156477779666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-81587592959458443682008-04-30T15:31:00.000-05:002008-04-30T15:31:00.000-05:00Putting something in the list of available equipme...Putting something in the list of available equipment doesn’t mean that it has to cost something. Especially if you’re using the equipment lists to convey information about the world or the style of play, then including things that can be had free (or things that money can’t buy) can be a good idea.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-50226502485770233232008-04-30T14:22:00.000-05:002008-04-30T14:22:00.000-05:00There's lots of things that "Old Coot" gamers end ...There's lots of things that "Old Coot" gamers end up with that isn't on the equipment lists. Some of us know to go out and cut our own 11 or 12 ft poles because a smart GM will have traps that take advantage of the "Standard"... <BR/><BR/>Good post though about the "GP Inflation"...Greylondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09896610456503648984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-17723519740652896752008-04-30T13:51:00.000-05:002008-04-30T13:51:00.000-05:00Thanks for the correction, greylond. I think I ha...Thanks for the correction, greylond. I think I had that mixed up in my memory with the "1BP = one quarter of a stat point" rule.<BR/><BR/><B>People actually want to PAY for a 10ft pole? Really?</B><BR/><BR/>I want newbies to see the 10' pole on the equipment list and ask themselves why it is there. I want codgers to be able to kit out like they did under earlier editions.Jeff Rientshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-21450404681831753792008-04-30T13:41:00.000-05:002008-04-30T13:41:00.000-05:00Also, in HM each Build Point that you spend Does N...Also, in HM each Build Point that you spend Does NOT equal 25gp. It gives you a 2d12 die roll that gives you a modifier for your roll on the "Starting Money" Table 4M of the PHB. That roll is a d100+modifiers that in turn gives you a range of gps that you roll. Anything from a Family Debt to 190+2d20gps plus family heirloom items and/or deedsGreylondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09896610456503648984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-11169922349432616182008-04-30T13:32:00.000-05:002008-04-30T13:32:00.000-05:00People actually want to PAY for a 10ft pole? Reall...People actually want to PAY for a 10ft pole? Really? <BR/><BR/>Hint, if you have a sword or an axe or a dagger, your 10ft pole is as easy to get as a walk to the nearest tree...Greylondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09896610456503648984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-24704434925462684912008-04-30T06:39:00.000-05:002008-04-30T06:39:00.000-05:00Interestingly, this whole issue has just come up w...Interestingly, this whole issue has just come up with the Labyrinth Lord campaign I'm starting up.<BR/><BR/>On one hand, LL gives characters 3d8x10 gold instead of 3d6x10. On the other hand- chain mail now costs 150gp vs. 40gp in Moldvay basic. To further complicate things, LL offers an expanded selection of armor:<BR/><BR/>Type AC/Cost<BR/>Padded 8/5gp<BR/>Leather 7/20gp<BR/>Studded leather 6/30gp<BR/>Scale mail 6/65gp<BR/>Chain mail 5/150gp<BR/>Splint mail 4/200gp<BR/>Banded mail 4/250gp<BR/>Plate mail 3/600gp<BR/>Shield (-1)/10gpAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-40391745956705942542008-04-30T00:01:00.000-05:002008-04-30T00:01:00.000-05:00I think gear and price lists should be tuned to be...<B>I think gear and price lists should be tuned to be more reflective of the play style.</B><BR/><BR/>Amen to that, and reflective of the game as a whole. With GoH2, I treated the equipment list as a full on window into the entire game-world; I wanted to make absolutely certain it would _never_ be mistaken as a price-list suitable for any setting other than the one it's written for, and that it genuinely reflects what play in the world tends to be like, and actual needs from table experience. Plus a fair number of sly jokes, of course, because I can't help it.S. John Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12284417121877141161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-31235574258011215562008-04-29T11:45:00.000-05:002008-04-29T11:45:00.000-05:00Interesting comparison and discussion. Part of the...Interesting comparison and discussion. Part of the inflation certainly has to do with the trend towards more "realism." This trend has two aspects, the first is more realistic prices, the second is trying to make leveling up more "realistic" and assuming that for example, the army has lots of members above 1st level, and thus a 1st level PC shouldn't be fully equipped.<BR/><BR/>One thing that I have seen as a constant struggle is how to make varied armor relevant. OD&D basically figures clerics and fighters will all be in plate (all magic armor is plate in OD&D), so chain as far as PCs go is relegated to starting equipment, with leather for the poor PC who rolled low (and later the thief). Later editions tried to make chain have more staying power through encumbrance rules (though I almost never saw medium armor used in my Arcana Unearthed/Evolved campaigns, players either go light or heavy armor). There also has been a trend away from kitchen sink gear lists, even while increasing the number of items on the price lists. I think gear and price lists should be tuned to be more reflective of the play style. Old school dungeoning should have somewhat extensive lists of items of various uses in dungeon situations. New school gaming should concentrate on weapons and armor for fighting, and have things like "adventurer's pack" on the price list.<BR/><BR/>FrankFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15855679156477779666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-71294413992299164252008-04-29T11:20:00.000-05:002008-04-29T11:20:00.000-05:00The lack of the 10' pole in HackMaster frankly sho...The lack of the 10' pole in HackMaster frankly shocked me. Maybe I missed it. The equipment chapter is large and full of ridiculous charts. But I looked twice on two separate days before posting.Jeff Rientshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-66190909078855206392008-04-29T10:38:00.000-05:002008-04-29T10:38:00.000-05:00I was very dismayed to see that several games - ap...I was very dismayed to see that several games - apparently even including Hackmaster - leave out 10 foot poles on the equipment list. We should have a consumer advocacy website with a list of all RPGs leaving 10' poles off the common price list, so that people who think they're buying a real role playing-game won't feel ripped off. In general publishers should place a note clearly on the cover if their game doesn't have 10' poles - sort of like the tobacco warnings. This is serious stuff.<BR/><BR/>- CalithenaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-24891144412986489862008-04-28T16:58:00.000-05:002008-04-28T16:58:00.000-05:00Oooh, that is interesting. I think, at least when...Oooh, that is interesting. I think, at least when it comes to pricing for chainmail/swords/other metal equipment, it really is a question of realism level and environment. A medieval Europe setting would have more chainmail and other metal equipment than a Eastern setting (comparatively) just because of the abundance of iron ore. So, it'd depend if you wanted everyone to have easy (relatively) access to metal equipment in my view, and how that'd translate out to general world (e.g. more mines and thus more abandoned dungeons? or a larger than normal number of blacksmiths,higher grain production (better plows, etc.).<BR/><BR/>And there's game balance too of course.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-46644205218854137422008-04-28T14:09:00.000-05:002008-04-28T14:09:00.000-05:00I like your comparison, but there's one thing I th...I like your comparison, but there's one thing I think you missed:<BR/><BR/>Moldvay's armor costs are equal to OD&D's costs of armor plus helmet (10 gp). He got around the problem of people not buying helmets by just including them. So your OD&D cost would be 10 more, for the helm, for equivalent gear.<BR/><BR/>-- CoffeeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-49800757295386753782008-04-28T10:28:00.000-05:002008-04-28T10:28:00.000-05:00Very interesting comparison!It's kind of ironic. I...Very interesting comparison!<BR/><BR/>It's kind of ironic. In the earliest editions when the goal was very clearly to acquire wealth, PCs didn't have a whole lot to spend that wealth on. (Although, I'm certainly one to give quite a lengthy counter-opinion on that subject, the <I>perception</I> may be more important here.)<BR/><BR/>Then, the prices were adjusted so that you'd use that wealth to travel up the mundane items price chart; but at the same time, the goals became more diverse.<BR/><BR/>Personally, these days I tend to prefer that mundane equipment be window-dressing. Let the players have whatever seem fitting for their PC. (Be prepared to be surprised by how few of them abuse this.) This mundane equipment, however, shouldn't have a huge affect on the game.<BR/><BR/>But it's still fun to have extraordinary equipment (fantasy magic items, sci-fi military grade weapons). But it's stuff you can't <I>merely</I> buy. (Even if you can buy it, you can't just run down to the S-mart and pick one up.)Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-85001000658822185852008-04-28T09:06:00.000-05:002008-04-28T09:06:00.000-05:00It's the problem of weight and encumbrance. I've l...<B>It's the problem of weight and encumbrance. I've lately been grappling with it as both a player and a DM. I keep running up against the fact that, unless Morgan has a 18 strength, she's not moving more than 3" per round under all that weight (at least, not under 1e encumbrance). *sigh*</B><BR/><BR/>I had a 2e ranger who carried a LOT of equipment. He only wore studded leather so even weighed down he could keep up with the gronks in platemail. I crammed as much gear as possible in my backpack and gained several inches of movement by dropping it. Admittedly, that was a pain in the ass in surprise situations. And one time some mites tried to steal all my stuff while I was fighting another monster. That was pretty awesome actually. I fired a crossbow bolt down a rathole at the little wanker carrying off my cooking pot.<BR/><BR/>Morgan could do something similar. She's lugging all her gear in a big sack thrown over her shoulder. I'd rule that was much faster to drop than a backpack.<BR/><BR/>Or you can have someone else carry your stuff. A hireling/henchmen/follower is good for that. As are mules. For the necromantically inclined zombies and skeletons make for pretty decent packbearers. And under versions of D&D where Str doesn't effect encumbrance you can make the MU hold some stuff.<BR/><BR/><B>I've yet to see, or devise, an encumbrance system that is rational, effective, and playable.</B><BR/><BR/>I kinda like <A HREF="http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2007/04/encumbrance.html" REL="nofollow">Delta's "stone" system</A>.Jeff Rientshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-6725479623741340752008-04-28T07:16:00.000-05:002008-04-28T07:16:00.000-05:00I noticed in more recent editions of D&D that the ...I noticed in more recent editions of D&D that the prices are proportionally more in line with RPGs that try to be realistic like Harnmaster.<BR/><BR/>Likely the inflation is due to efforts of the designers inject more realism. Not sure it is warranted in the case of D&D.Robert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-9217062948105711222008-04-27T23:11:00.000-05:002008-04-27T23:11:00.000-05:00I've yet to see, or devise, an encumbrance system ...<B>I've yet to see, or devise, an encumbrance system that is rational, effective, and playable. </B><BR/><BR/>In my own homebrew fantasy RPG (originally designed for publication but now in limbo), I've been very satisfied with a simplified encumbrance rule [inspired by systems common in some kinds of tabletop wargame] that only considers major gear (armor and shield, primarily), with special-case exception available if someone's temporarily saddled with a huge sack of loot or an unconscious body.<BR/><BR/>The numbers are simple (the lightest shield has an encumbrance of "1"), the effects are strong enough to be felt, varied enough to qualify as a tactical choice, and understated enough not to be cruel.<BR/><BR/>Of course, there have been players who recoil at the notion that Curlytoes of Burping Hill can have _three_ daggers and not be any slower than if he has _two,_ but those kinds of people don't last long in my groups, anyway :)S. John Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12284417121877141161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-6623629734534269442008-04-27T21:41:00.000-05:002008-04-27T21:41:00.000-05:00The problem I keep chewing over isn't the economic...The problem I keep chewing over isn't the economic one (studying macro IRL for a couple of years cured me of the urge to have any significant verisimilitude in my fantasy economies).<BR/><BR/>It's the problem of weight and encumbrance. I've lately been grappling with it as both a player and a DM. I keep running up against the fact that, unless Morgan has a 18 strength, she's not moving more than 3" per round under all that weight (at least, not under 1e encumbrance). *sigh*<BR/><BR/>I've yet to see, or devise, an encumbrance system that is rational, effective, <I>and</I> playable. <BR/><BR/>And it does seem to boil down, in someway to the value of the coin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-74446026347987400122008-04-27T16:53:00.000-05:002008-04-27T16:53:00.000-05:00One quick note. I recently ran your Xylarthen's t...One quick note. I recently ran your Xylarthen's tower adventure for a couple OD&D newbies. Based upon their experience with later editions, they thought it very important to buy a horse for every character. Once they got to the dungeon they parked the horses outside and never used them again. Kind of a tangent, but I just thought it was interesting how the campaign style leads to certain equipment purchases, and starting with AD&D2 the game seems to encourage more "overland" campaigns- and thus more horse purchases.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-16396583153405529342008-04-27T14:46:00.000-05:002008-04-27T14:46:00.000-05:00Always a favorite topic of mine.I recently did a m...Always a favorite topic of mine.<BR/><BR/>I recently did a massive (15-page spreadsheet) comparison of fantasy-price economics for the 2nd edition of Uresia: Grave of Heaven as well, and I similarly base most of my judgments around starting PC equipment ... though in that case, with a system-agnostic design, I was free to work with other metrics, based around the relative value of emeralds and knightly gear, for example, to establish some of the basic design intentions in terms that translate across not only game systems, but game systems' economic assumptions and quirks. One area you don't touch on here, but which was central to my own examinations, was the relationship between pay rates and prices, something fantasy games have, as a rule, been very dodgy about. Of course, Uresia being Uresia, the final results of my work will be tossed off casually in a breezy saturday-afternoon way, but reflecting some pretty intensely crunched-out choices as to what Uresia is about (and, of course, the assumptions do allow for a fully-chain-suited starting fighter with a nice bit of kit to go with it ... because I _do_ advocate that as a right answer for a world built around trad-fantasy treasure-huntery fun, which Uresia very much is).<BR/><BR/>As for E.C. ... Not only is a suit of chain beyond a starting Warrior's reach in E.C., it's just a _hair's breadth_ out of reach of the best die-roll, and of course that's no accident of the truly scientific maths. Many of the numbers in E.C. economics are warped and based on random ranges (resale values, lemon odds, army-stocking odds ... all literally randomized every time I opened the spreadsheet for that chart, albeit randomized within controlled formulaic ranges*), but the core prices were carefully designed to reflect Hank's "Horatio Alger" design sensibilities.<BR/><BR/>=======<BR/>(For those without access to the Phasic Cyaborg edition, which actually includes the design spreadsheets, this, for example, is the formula for army odds for "commoner garb")<BR/><BR/>=((((1-C10)/5*G10*2)*(B10))+0.01)*1.22222222222222<BR/><BR/>Where (B10) is a random number seed. Hashing out pointless stuff like this in detail is why everything I do is so late, in case anyone gets curious :)S. John Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12284417121877141161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-35355082628221408312008-04-27T13:28:00.000-05:002008-04-27T13:28:00.000-05:00The OSRIC module, Curse of the Witch Head (or PDF ...The OSRIC module, <A HREF="http://www.xrpshop.citymax.com/catalog/item/3906568/4330758.htm" REL="nofollow">Curse of the Witch Head</A> (or <A HREF="http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=55328&affiliate_id=17667" REL="nofollow">PDF version</A>), has an encounter where the kind of boots you have matters. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-84231226189687548152008-04-27T12:55:00.000-05:002008-04-27T12:55:00.000-05:00This post is beautiful; I approve -- but then I'm ...This post is beautiful; I approve -- but then I'm the guy who compares the stats of monsters and spells across editions, so I'm probably a bit weird anyway.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.com