tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post6047639824946231837..comments2024-03-27T22:32:17.055-05:00Comments on Jeffs Gameblog: clerics/hit points/healing surges/etcJeff Rientshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-48637646098768135542012-05-24T10:07:59.982-05:002012-05-24T10:07:59.982-05:00I think that if you abstract it too far, you end u...I think that if you abstract it too far, you end up with a single dice roll to win the quest.<br /><br />You could abstract it even further and just say 'I win.'<br /><br />There is such a thing as too much abstraction.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-80333214854258994402012-05-23T16:38:23.533-05:002012-05-23T16:38:23.533-05:00Absolutely. But an understanding of how folks in ...Absolutely. But an understanding of how folks in our world actually perceive(d) Thor or Zeus or Osiris or Kali or whoever would help to make whatever cosmology I come up with that much richer; even if it is out of touch with the "reality" of the game. It's not so much about explaining how the gods work in the game as it is about adding depth to their following.Timrod https://www.blogger.com/profile/15308269015770538709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-77080806314333214422012-05-23T15:02:39.242-05:002012-05-23T15:02:39.242-05:00You are missing part of the game if you are always...You are missing part of the game if you are always loaded up on healing items. I have had a lot of great adventures with say a ranger, an MU, and a thief of 6th-9th level wandering around with one or two healing potions and strict 1 hp/day recovery. It's an attrition game then, and you have to think carefully about fights - sure you can kill those four bugbears if you need to, but do you really want to risk losing 10 hp each over that? Is it worth it? <br /><br />I'd go so far as to say that a lot of high level play just isn't as fun for me with a cleric or indefinite healing around. Although combat was slow I thought 3e worked better for combat at levels 15+ than earlier editions, but at levels 6-12 I tend to prefer the attrition adventure style to the 'heal up after every fight' style.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-51487291674411278742012-05-23T07:49:34.694-05:002012-05-23T07:49:34.694-05:00I utterly reject the idea that clerics are less op...I utterly reject the idea that clerics are less optional under any edition I've played extensively. Cleric free parties have prospered across at least the first 25 years of the game.Jeff Rientshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-71528754066371443602012-05-23T01:59:51.976-05:002012-05-23T01:59:51.976-05:00This thread is the first time I've really &quo...This thread is the first time I've really "got" the confusion between the various editions (I've been deliberately not paying attention, but this issue seems to touch on a lot of systems) - the variety of assumptions flying around here is dizzying. <br />(and just like everyone else I've made up my own justifications for hp which can't be found in any published edition, and so some things make sense to my understanding and others don't.)richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-9608784051702195722012-05-22T17:48:27.356-05:002012-05-22T17:48:27.356-05:00What a given cleric believes and the reality of a ...What a given cleric believes and the reality of a campaign world need not have any connection. All gods could be aspects of the one true god, or they could be aliens, or they could be using psychic power. Not everything needs to be explained.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-20992725888234967872012-05-22T17:35:44.214-05:002012-05-22T17:35:44.214-05:00"What I am against is another abstraction sit..."What I am against is another abstraction sitting on top of the original abstraction."<br /><br />That's pretty reasonable, and makes sense to me.Rushputinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07867389429325778387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-27379942276298855522012-05-22T17:34:39.707-05:002012-05-22T17:34:39.707-05:00That's actually how 4E works, though: after an...That's actually how 4E works, though: after an extended rest ("resting overnight") characters regain all lost hit points and any expended healing surges. <br /><br />Healing Surges are actually there to compensate for some healing abilities being limited to X times per-encounter, instead of X times a day. Pre-AEDU, a cleric could heal a fixed number times (and a capped number of hit points) a day. With AEDU but without healing surges, parties could theoretically just go and go and no without needing to take set up camp for the night. It's a mechanism intended (successfully or not) to make series of small fights threatening over the course of a day.Rushputinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07867389429325778387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-56547906598006572552012-05-22T17:10:03.641-05:002012-05-22T17:10:03.641-05:00In my clericless campaign, I'm always in searc...In my clericless campaign, I'm always in search of ways to parsel out healing capacity to the PCs. My latest endeavor is allowing overnight rest to "heal" a portion of lost HPs. <br /><br />I'd love to find a way to incorporate clerics into my game but, as a product of the Judeo-Christian culture that is prevalent in the western world, I can't wrap my head around pantheistic theology. It seems unlikely to me that gods with awesome magic hammers or the ability to screw countless virgins whilst in the guise of a bull would really give a crap if some a-hole is out spreading the faith and foreswearing edged weapons in my name.Timrod https://www.blogger.com/profile/15308269015770538709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-56667554013728757632012-05-22T16:55:56.106-05:002012-05-22T16:55:56.106-05:00"3) If clerics are nothing but wandering medk..."3) If clerics are nothing but wandering medkits then the problem is in the campaign, not the friggin' combat rules. Give your players some kickass gods to worship, ecclesiastical authorities to cheese off, holy shrines to visit, etc."<br /><br />What you do is give XP for GP.<br /><br />The reason why so many tend toward healing spells is because the game is effing DEADLY. Even kitted out with healing spells, nothing stops a bunch of high-rolling skeleton archers from wiping you out if they get surprise and win initiative.<br /><br />Which is why you want to avoid the baddies, find the treasure, and get out fast. Which doesn't work if the only (non-railroady) source of XP is beating up monsters.Witnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08436715843403046648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-7976525079106643492012-05-22T16:23:46.281-05:002012-05-22T16:23:46.281-05:00A choice quote from that blog post: "We want ...A choice quote from that blog post: "We want to make the cleric as optional for a group as a fighter, wizard, or rogue."<br /><br />Having played and DMed a fair amount of Living Greyhawk and Pathfinder Society, you are never guaranteed having a heal-bot cleric in your party, so instead pretty much every PC seemed to have a wand of cure light wounds they would hand out to any divine caster (which was often a multiclassed Ranger) to heal them up after an encounter. There was a Spell Compendium spell called 'Lesser Vigor' which gave you fast healing 1 for 11 rounds with a 1st. level wand; which was popular at the end of LG, and much better than 1d8+1. <br /><br />To me, Healing surges and short rests were just the latest way to de-itemize this required healing accessory for all character. Hordes of smelly convention gamers have been playing with the stupid wand system for 10+ years but I think it at least makes sense as opposed to repurposing Hit Dice into some kind of new healing surge system.Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15585204340254292108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-33273840379877598002012-05-22T16:23:18.370-05:002012-05-22T16:23:18.370-05:00Justin of The Alexandrian sums up my thoughts on t...Justin of The Alexandrian sums up my thoughts on the matter here: http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1034/roleplaying-games/explaining-hit-points. <br /><br />For me the key bit is this section towards the bottom:<br />"Which leaves the only significant and intractable problem with the hit point abstraction: The cure spells. Despite the fact that the number of hit points required to represent a wound with a particular severity varies depending on the character’s total hit points, a cure spell heals a flat number of hit points. Thus, a cure light wounds spell used on a 1st level fighter will heal grievous wounds. When the same spell is used on a 10th level fighter, on the other hand, it can’t handle more than a scratch.<br /><br />This is a legacy issue which has been retained for reasons of game balance. But if you want to fix this, simply have cure spells work more like natural healing: Multiply the number of hit points cured by the creature’s HD."<br /><br />The issue isn't with hit points but with the healing spells. Fix the healing spells and much of the craziness of hit points goes away. <br /><br />The way I work it is that magical healing does 1d6xlevel while other mundane things (like bandages, healing salves, strange fungi found in the wild, etc.) will just heal 1d6 or 1d4 hit points. That way the Clerics never feel like they have to memorize more than one or two of the cure spells and there are other methods for healing.Monkapotomushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15863829877299943297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-48217165499897497582012-05-22T15:43:37.809-05:002012-05-22T15:43:37.809-05:00I'm sure I'm not the first person on the i...I'm <i>sure</i> I'm not the first person on the internet to suggest this, but:<br /><br />Healing surges must have been intended to solve the social game-table problems of a) character death knocking a player out of the game for some amount of time and b) players of clerics feeling like they have to take responsibility for the entire party's health all the time, which may not be fun. I've found that these problems can be circumvented by a) allowing a character to regain all her hit points by resting overnight and b) removing all or almost all sources of supernatural healing from the game. (Naturally both of these solutions require the wholehearted embrace of an abstract interpretation of hit points.) Dropping to or below zero hit points may indeed result in a fatality, but (according to a die roll) it may also result in a serious but treatable injury or unconsciousness - conditions from which the character can recover, regaining a single hit point, if proper treatment is given.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-54844485681701703512012-05-22T14:01:10.660-05:002012-05-22T14:01:10.660-05:00I am fine with clerics being walking medivacs, par...I am fine with clerics being walking medivacs, particularly at first and second levels. I am fine with players that want to load up on one spell.<br /><br />Players may enjoy the game in the way they want to.<br /><br />After all, who cares what the DM thinks? :-DJoe Johnstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08847388615721715893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-9277013031221020962012-05-22T08:34:29.011-05:002012-05-22T08:34:29.011-05:00"Once you go there, what's one more abstr..."Once you go there, what's one more abstraction?"<br /><br />This is obviously a matter of taste and I'm not sure more discussion will help change anyone's mind.<br /><br />Anyone wanting to do 'meat damage' to, say, a character's Con score, can probably keep the PCs alive a little longer without a lot of new mechanics. Me, I don't want more than one number to track on NPCs and monsters.Jeff Rientshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-22844700826753031412012-05-22T06:24:38.999-05:002012-05-22T06:24:38.999-05:00Once you go there, what's one more abstraction...Once you go there, what's one more abstraction?<br /><br />With a small but vital change, Mike Mearl's proposal actually has the possibility of making it a lot less abstract: by introducing a separate value for real actual damage. One that's pure meat, and doesn't go up by level. Hitpoints are the luck/divine favour/energy/experience aspect, and once that runs out, you take real physical damage that's hard to heal. Recovering hitpoints can be easy and fast, because it doesn't represent serious damage, and it can go up in level, since it represents experience instead of bulk.mcvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06377717263014894024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-8057502476894816822012-05-22T03:50:56.634-05:002012-05-22T03:50:56.634-05:00@Peter K: In my game clerics have to take vows lik...@Peter K: In my game clerics have to take vows like the Wu Jen in Oriental Adventures. If they break their vows they lose their powers. As a result they've gone from the least popular to most popular class in my game - as long as the players fulfill their vows, they feel justified in acting however they please.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07090296806321882601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-48690609490404774972012-05-22T03:15:16.045-05:002012-05-22T03:15:16.045-05:00I disagree regarding clerics simply as dungeon med...I disagree regarding clerics simply as dungeon medics. Sure, their the guys you run to when you bleeding like a stuck pig, but I have seen time and time again my share of clerics trading blows against some ugly in a melee round. Healing surges- no matter if it's a given power or out of a wineskin- suck dirty ghoul balls as far as I'm concerned.I.F.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04345074915911014741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-45560392135873463902012-05-22T03:07:08.665-05:002012-05-22T03:07:08.665-05:00Liquid Courage is great: adopting it now. Cf Jaege...Liquid Courage is great: adopting it now. Cf Jaegerdraft...richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-3847531235381987532012-05-22T01:03:53.707-05:002012-05-22T01:03:53.707-05:00If a knife wound does 1d4, then d6 is _a lot_ of h...<i>If a knife wound does 1d4, then d6 is _a lot_ of healing just for drinking some booze.</i><br /><br />What if it was PCP?huthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16502682297320819595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-44835773132711955892012-05-22T00:58:13.665-05:002012-05-22T00:58:13.665-05:00Hi there. I followed you over from Discourse.
The...Hi there. I followed you over from Discourse.<br /><br />The idea behind number two is interesting. I'm not so sure it would work in my campaigns, since dwarves are required to drink alcohol at least once a day or they get penalties. But, that's what makes a house rule a house rule, right? =]<br /><br />I definitely agree with number three. Even with a cleric in our first campaign, Tess was more apt to memorize utility spells (produce flame, hold, sanctuary, bless, etc) than anything else. Sometimes she wouldn't bother with cure light wounds.<br /><br />Currently the girls are playing two fighters and a thief.<br />Well, the thief just died, so scratch that. Heh.burnedfxhttp://thedelvers.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-50334547109886765652012-05-22T00:41:03.100-05:002012-05-22T00:41:03.100-05:00The only way I would ever allow this is if the PCs...The only way I would ever allow this is if the PCs acted as Hulk Hogan. The entire campaign, brother. <br /><br />No Hulk, no Hulking up.Jason kielbasahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13953768189103378338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-9180654118603479602012-05-22T00:18:09.134-05:002012-05-22T00:18:09.134-05:00I like Alexis' boozing rules: http://tao-dnd.b...I like Alexis' boozing rules: http://tao-dnd.blogspot.com/2012/05/blessed-drunkedness.htmlErichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07649420272387984400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-12100837290939988792012-05-21T22:55:23.910-05:002012-05-21T22:55:23.910-05:00The idea that sits best with me is that characters...The idea that sits best with me is that characters have both some luck/inner strength points to resist damage which refresh periodically (usually daily), but also some "actual physical injury" points to which take longer to heal. Kind of like the wounds/vitality system.<br /><br />I've been piecing together <a href="http://fantasyheartbreak.blogspot.com/2012/02/reserves.html" rel="nofollow">something along these lines</a> that ties in with spell points as well. So pouring on your magic for the day is going to make it harder to shrug off damage, and avoiding long term damage makes you too exhausted to cast spells.Peter K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17181421723646836427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-71740394424532877292012-05-21T22:39:01.123-05:002012-05-21T22:39:01.123-05:00@ cappadocius: It's funny, I always assumed t...@ cappadocius: It's funny, I always assumed that the reason folks don't seem to play clerics much was not to avoid being a heal-bot, but specifically because they didn't want to be burdened with constantly having to represent some divine being, for good or ill. Maybe it's just my assumption, but it seemed like the moderately decent spells, attacks and armor that clerics have gotten throughout several editions were a bribe to play one.Peter K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17181421723646836427noreply@blogger.com