tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post241820440237776229..comments2024-03-27T22:32:17.055-05:00Comments on Jeffs Gameblog: contra VanceJeff Rientshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-70966200068632574082012-03-12T10:21:41.562-05:002012-03-12T10:21:41.562-05:00I wrote up my "save to retain spells" id...I wrote up my "save to retain spells" idea in more detail here:<br /><br /><a href="http://untimately.blogspot.com/2012/03/two-vancian-magic-variants.html" rel="nofollow">http://untimately.blogspot.com/2012/03/two-vancian-magic-variants.html</a><br /><br />By the way, nice Flight of Dragons banner. It was one of my favorite movies as an 80s kid. I kind of miss the dinosaur though.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-78005554220426231462012-03-06T07:49:20.485-06:002012-03-06T07:49:20.485-06:00Mythus used spell points too, called "Heka&qu...Mythus used spell points too, called "Heka". However the most interesting part of the mythus magic system IMO was the different grades of just how easy it was for you to recall and cast spells from your repertoire. Some spells you'd totally groked and could rattle off at a moments notice, others you sort of knew and it would take you a while longer to um and ah your way through and finally some spells you had read but had to pretty much go to your library to remind your self of some of the fiddly bits. This influenced casting time and ease of casting which made life very interesting.<br /><br />Which brings me to my house rule.<br /><br />I use the Vancian/Gygaxian base rules to define just how many spells and of what level a MU can recall at any time but I use spell points for actual casting. So at low level the MU might be able to memorize a single spell but can cast it a few times a day. At high levels he might spam his repertoire of low level spells all day, or get off a few high level spells instead.PlanetNileshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16166553184766848116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-54195534550489682552012-03-04T13:36:19.097-06:002012-03-04T13:36:19.097-06:00Another related idea for those that like magic-use...Another related idea for those that like magic-users to have an unknown limit:<br /><br />Prepare/cast spells reliably as normal.<br /><br />Any unprepared spell that the magic-user is familiar with (i.e., has in their spell book) may be cast but requires an action and a successful save vs. spells. Failure and the action is wasted, fumble and bad stuff happens.<br /><br />Any spell that the magic-user has witnessed may also be cast (for example, if the PC magic-user has seen an enemy spell caster use fireball). This uses the same rules as casting unprepared spells, but penalty to the save equal to spell level. Maybe the fumble range is extended to match the level of the spell also. Thus, casting an unfamiliar third level spell would fumble on a roll of 1, 2, or 3.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-87566149039005789092012-03-04T12:25:46.677-06:002012-03-04T12:25:46.677-06:00I know I'm late to this party, but here goes:
...I know I'm late to this party, but here goes:<br /><br />First of all, I have at least some interest in Jeff's A1 and A2 answers above. (Not knowing how many spells you've got until you're done and overcasting until you damage yourself).<br /><br />The other situations in magic I'd like to see <i>might</i> be workable in Vancian magic. However, traditional D&D's magic has always been a bit iffy on:<br /><br />* Creating spellcasters who have limited types of magic from which they can cast their spells. (I'm thinking here of a hard limit, rather than just a preference.) This isn't a hard fix, but it really does change some of the Dying Earth assumptions of wizardly magic (seeking out new spells rather than just learning them and so forth). Doing this without a whole lot of work (making a zillion spell lists) is really the tough part.<br /><br />* Magic that doesn't always do what you want it to. This can be handled within a Vancian framework but usually isn't in D&D.<br /><br />* Having magic that feels less technological. I suppose this is hard to put into words, but when spell descriptions tell you exactly what the effects are, the mystery of magic suffers.<br /><br />* (Related to the last one.) Having vague and unknown upper limits to what magic can do. This isn't really possible with a codified spell list like D&D has. It might even be necessary to make some magical effects that require things other than the standard trifecta: have the right MU level, seek out and learn the spell, cast the spell. Some of the incantation magic introduced as optional rules in later editions can do a little of this, but it could just be seen as shifting the goalpost without making things vague as I'd kind of like.<br /><br />Of course some of this can be done to one extent or the other within a D&D type spellcasting system, but as you add these items, the Vancian feel doesn't stay as strong.<br /><br />OK done.Danny Clinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06492549476409358773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-56612230681964795922012-03-03T15:59:49.553-06:002012-03-03T15:59:49.553-06:00Your house man. Delete it if you don't like it...Your house man. Delete it if you don't like it. Props for allowing anon comments though.Anonaholenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-7043276443484717932012-03-03T14:00:42.601-06:002012-03-03T14:00:42.601-06:00I have to say, and this is just my opinion, becaus...I have to say, and this is just my opinion, because I know it is popular and common (and if a dm rolls this way, that’s absolutely fine with me), but one of my least favorite ideas is the prohibition on multiple copies of a spell memorized. In a situation where 3 copies of Spell X is the way to go, then so be it, imo. If readying for other situations/obstacles/objectives, then prepare otherwise.<br /><br />Also, somehow I feel that some of the changes to magic start to blur class approaches we're all familar with, and which I think are a strength of D&D: F (force/combat); MU (intellect/pre-planning); Cl (fortitude/faith/healing); Th (detection/manipulation/stealth/deception). Maybe the MU is being taken more into the realm of the fighting man. <br /><br />Having said that I don’t really like to tinker too much with the traditional D&D magic, there’s one idea I kind of like, but nobody else ever seems to, the concept doesn’t seem to grab people. It is to have casters extend themselves, but at the time of ‘memorization,’ vs., casting. Extra spell(s) are memorizable, but at a risk. Possibly temporary insanity? Maybe 6 weeks of no adventuring and then another 6 weeks where earned experience is reduced by 25%. I dunno. Never worked out details or actually tried it.landlord dombrowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06388900543064531396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-76034783090802029602012-03-03T10:28:48.061-06:002012-03-03T10:28:48.061-06:00Thanks for the sleuth work.Thanks for the sleuth work.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-11806355837534405662012-03-03T10:26:16.927-06:002012-03-03T10:26:16.927-06:00Enormous conversation! Clearly Jeff, you've to...Enormous conversation! Clearly Jeff, you've touched on a topic with which a lot of people really aren't satisfied.<br /><br />I linked (I know, links suck, but it was long) above what I do now in Nicodemus. I thought I would also share what I did in my old games.<br /><br />I used spell points. When you got to zero you were pretty wiped out, but you could keep going and use hit points 1for1 as spell points. Any hit points used that way could not be healed magically. If you cast a spell that used more points than your remaining hit points, you could literally kill yourself casting it.<br /><br />Your spell points were equal to the average of int and wis, plus your con. Then you got 1d6 when you made a level.<br /><br />Spells cost their additive cumulative level to cast. lvl1-1, lvl2-3, lvl3-6, lvl4-10, lvl5-15, lvl6-21. Obviously, even a 1st level wiz can cast a lot of 1st lvl spells. In my game, this always worked really well, as there were ALWAYS lots of challenges (not just fighting) that needed the use of magic. Clearly, it might not work for a game where most challenges don't need magic. In that case I would probably add an appropriate number directly to those above.<br /><br />e.g. lvl1-11, lvl2-13, lvl3-16, etc.migellitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17106614212764056058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-16652580195660790422012-03-03T09:16:29.401-06:002012-03-03T09:16:29.401-06:00Of course, Gygax did spell points in Lejendary Adv...Of course, Gygax did spell points in <i>Lejendary Adventures</i>. (Though I think it had one of his crazy “I don’t want you to get LA confused with AD&D” names for it. Yeah, “Activation Energy Points”.) I don’t remember how Mythus did it.<br /><br />I like “Vancesque” because (1) it suggests not <i>exactly</i> like Vance’s and (2) I abhor the “-ian” suffix, which is a misunderstanding of “-an” (-anus, -a, -um) applied to roots that happen to end in “-i”. I mean, sure, the origin of a linguistic practice doesn’t really matter as much as it’s use, but since I’ve learned this kind of trivia, I might as well <i>do</i> something with it. ^_^<br /><br />Back to Jeff’s question, here’s another thing Vancesque D&D magic doesn’t do: The scene from the Gray Mouser’s origin story in which he manages to work some magic. Or the scene from <i>Willow</i> where he keeps trying the spell and doesn’t get it quite right.<br /><br />You could maybe pull off the latter with something like the <i>Sovereign Stone</i> magic system.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-56316887699311878442012-03-03T09:03:23.710-06:002012-03-03T09:03:23.710-06:00I tracked down the “using a scroll of a spell abov...I tracked down the “using a scroll of a spell above your level” thing in the 1e DMG. Basically 5% per level shy of the level you’d normally need to be to cast the spell. There’s also a chance that instead of just failing, it’ll have reverse or otherwise bad effect.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-50677143912063986762012-03-03T04:42:08.198-06:002012-03-03T04:42:08.198-06:00That's for coming around just to bring down th...That's for coming around just to bring down the room, Anonahole.Jeff Rientshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-9218455269148197412012-03-03T04:30:54.468-06:002012-03-03T04:30:54.468-06:00rant
DMs: If you want the wizards collapsing from ...rant<br />DMs: If you want the wizards collapsing from exhaustion, unsure of their next spell, or being possessed by your Warhammer 40k paint project of the week, please by all means ROLEPLAY YOUR NPC SPELLCASTERS THAT WAY. DMs Please. Stop foisting these half-assed punishment systems on players of the game. Sure, it'd be fine if you had it as an option so the local spotlight hog can pretend to be the prettiest flower, but honestly it seems to me that every DM who's read a Conan story at some points puts on his Sadist hat and entirely replaces the perfectly workable system with a finnicky fiddly book-keeping nightmare with a worse risk/reward ratio than your average carny booth... and then wonders why nobody but the kissass spotlight grabber wants to play wizards any more. It's hardly ever fun, and the fun only comes when you tack on a silly chaos wild magic table. One and a half sessions later, after the DM has fudged up the best rolls, it's on to "You cast what? Lets see how much power (rattle) Hmm. (rattle) A 6, and 9, and four 3s. That's... oh, we already did this result. Everyone is coated in blood and has to make opposed SLAP vs. STICK rolls or fall down. Everyone is -10 on BLA, and you lose 16 MEH. Hardy har."<br /><br />Ahhhhh.<br /><br />Off the topic:<br /><br />I don't know why we call it Vancian. It's Gary Gygax's interpretation of magic from The Dying Earth, colored by his other influences and mutated by necessities of game design.<br /><br />A better label: Gygaxian Magic. That way there's no need to justify its place in D&D as editions go forward. Could there be a more obvious answer to the question, "is there a place for Gygaxian magic in D&D?"Anonannoyednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-35644211487588960712012-03-02T14:40:19.625-06:002012-03-02T14:40:19.625-06:00There's a chance of failure to casting higher ...There's a chance of failure to casting higher level spells from scrolls? I thought you could just do it, if you had the scroll. At least, that's how I've always played. I usually phrase the trade-off as do you want to cast the spell now but have it lost or save it for when you are high enough level to transcribe it into your spell book for multiple uses?Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-24600953674105921382012-03-02T14:37:14.430-06:002012-03-02T14:37:14.430-06:00I enjoy a magic system where the caster has severa...I enjoy a magic system where the caster has several axes (plural of axis, not axe ^_^) on which to adjust the difficulty v. parameters of a spell. Like with some of the options in GURPS Magic. Casting without incantation is hard; with incantation is medium; yelling an incantation makes it easy. No movement is hard; gestures, medium; both hands and both feet, easy. &c.<br /><br />That said, when I play D&D I really like the reliability of magic. I don’t know what legends the rest of you are reading, but in the ones I read the magicians almost never fail to cast a spell. It’s only the people who push beyond their capability that the bad stuff happens.<br /><br />The stuff I plan to add to Vancesque magic in my next campaign are: At-will cantrips. Some “overcasting” method—you can cast beyond your daily limits but at a price. (And there are several good ideas above that I’ll be looking at for that one.) And somewhere (1e?) there were rules for casting spells of higher level than you normally can from scrolls with a chance of failure. I want to take a new look at that too. Oh, and of course, the old “Color of magic” article from <i>Dragon</i>.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-60357317586792930642012-03-02T14:25:47.142-06:002012-03-02T14:25:47.142-06:00In 0e there are some basic counterspell rules. As...In 0e there are some basic counterspell rules. As I recall them, any magic-user can attempt to counterspell any magic spell being cast. Their success is a percentage chance modified by the relative level of the caster and counterspeller.<br /><br />As far as I can tell, they were dropped with AD&D, Holmes, and Moldvay Basic, and never really returned.Skydyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12547022250810401131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-84337318689023323822012-03-02T10:13:37.468-06:002012-03-02T10:13:37.468-06:00The magic system I use for my D&D-But-Not game...The magic system I use for my D&D-But-Not game consists of Vancian magic you can screw with. Very much based on my excuses for why Vancian magic works the way it does, we've been able to add the following key adjustment...<br /><br />A wizard can modify the nature and specifics of any spell using their skill/knowledge of how magic spells functions. However, since you are violating the 'design specs' of the spell, it can be difficult to cast if you change it too much, resulting in a back fire that can harm you, your allies, the surrounding area or do something largely unexpected as a result.<br /><br />Magic is also somewhat tiring to use if many spells are cast back to back to back.Adam Dicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04840144928096089178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-58777371429244851992012-03-02T09:44:54.424-06:002012-03-02T09:44:54.424-06:00@gdbackus
Re: Your wish for better counterspelling...@gdbackus<br />Re: Your wish for better counterspelling.<br /><br />I created bare-bones elementalist variants for the last 3.x game i ran that did this very well. Every wizard picked an element or they chose to be balanced. Every spell you cast got that descriptor and whatever visual effects to make it work. (Fireball = Freezeball = Acidball = Lightningball, etc.) (Balanced meant picking the descriptor when you learned the spell and always striving for close to equal numbers of each type. Sorcerers could not be balanced.)<br /><br />Any spell of equal level could be used to counter a spell of opposite descriptor.<br />Any spell of higher level could be used to take control of of a spell of same descriptor. <br /><br />Wizard vs. Wizard battles got a lot more interesting.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13904797552624746980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-41332734546703535872012-03-02T07:55:32.930-06:002012-03-02T07:55:32.930-06:00Because at low levels, Light is the superior offen...Because at low levels, Light is the superior offensive spell. Instead of a bit of wimpy damage, you can BLIND YOUR OPPONENT! :DBigharahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14232940345429292782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-15259878076723418112012-03-02T07:11:31.015-06:002012-03-02T07:11:31.015-06:00Although I can imagine things in play that'd b...Although I can imagine things in play that'd be cool which aren't encouraged by the system, I like it as is, and wouldn't change it too much at all... have to chime in in favor of Vancian.landlord dombrowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06388900543064531396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-10853890293760296382012-03-02T06:14:39.404-06:002012-03-02T06:14:39.404-06:00re pushing for extra power at the cost of risk, I&...re pushing for extra power at the cost of risk, I've been thinking about this for the fighter too: allowing extra attacks right from level 1 but with a hefty to hit penalty and increased chance of fumble, and then eroding those penalties as you increase in level, so that the day you qualify for 2 attacks per round you can push for 3.<br /><br />I haven't playtested it, but it seems likely to me that every player will always take the extra risk because combat is always desperate. That might be true of risky spellcasting boosts too.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-11891680654632428522012-03-02T03:39:40.521-06:002012-03-02T03:39:40.521-06:00I have been playing around with the thought of a s...I have been playing around with the thought of a system similar to the damage system used in Mutants & Masterminds. As you cast spells, you accumulate more and more "spell fatigue" with a check required with each spell casting. The higher the level of spell, the more difficult to cast, and the more likely one will be physically fatigued, exhausted, stunned, or even fall unconscious as a result. <br />Spell Fatigue is cumulative, but disappears over time, encouraging moderation but still allowing someone to go all out. Even a 20th-level caster would quickly be fatigued after several 9th-level spells (d20+ caster level check against DC24, then DC33, then DC42, and so on; with failure resulting in cumulative physical fatigue; failure by 5 or more cumulative physical exhaustion; 10 or more being stunned; and failure by 15 or more resulting in unconsciousness (then being exhausted after waking)<br />The only problem I am running into is scaling, so as to prevent high level casters (assuming a bonus of some sort is given based solely on level) from being able to pull out a dozen or more low-level spells without any immediate consequences. (E.g. magic missile, DC16, magic missile DC17, magic missile DC18...)Tenebroushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06628088076663531943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-77171335762383032862012-03-02T03:30:21.280-06:002012-03-02T03:30:21.280-06:00Using hit points as a source of mana simply turns ...Using hit points as a source of mana simply turns clerics (or other healers) into mana batteries. Even worse, healing potions become an easy way for Magic Users to sustain lengthy battles. Most groups have house rules, but mana as hit points would seem to be a pretty radical change. <br /><br />Z.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-3005709401849184142012-03-02T02:46:20.968-06:002012-03-02T02:46:20.968-06:00Exactly - I always knew I wasn't going to be h...Exactly - I always knew I wasn't going to be happy with pre-memorization of optimized spells, that gets in the way of creative use. More and more I am seeing the fun, too, in allowing spellcasters to push the limit, reach for things beyond their grasp with a chance of failure and indeed catastrophe. In my current system I allow one casting of each different spell known per day, up to a certain total limit, and I'm considering letting people try to double-cast or cast higher-level spells than they're entitled to, but requiring a save and a potentially disastrous failure effect.Roger G-Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08594440701279968693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-58550813804782563012012-03-02T01:30:36.183-06:002012-03-02T01:30:36.183-06:00I like the otherworldly intrigue of demonologists....I like the otherworldly intrigue of demonologists. Demons become NPCs in their own right, with their own culture and inner conflicts. When worldly politics and Hellish politics intermingle, life becomes very interesting indeed for the demonologist.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12508594597349248576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7652921.post-3701914668908841992012-03-02T00:54:37.222-06:002012-03-02T00:54:37.222-06:00A lot of this is addressed in the imminent DCCRPG....A lot of this is addressed in the imminent DCCRPG. You roll a d20 and only lose the spell if you fail. <br /><br />The feature/bug is that each spell is a random table unto itself.<br /><br />Oh, and spell fumbles are brutal.Daren Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489012945692828480noreply@blogger.com